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Number includes cars that are partially gas burning. > That includes fully electric cars, as well as electrified vehicles like its plug-in electric Active Tour

Number includes cars that are partially gas burning. > That includes fully electric cars, as well as electrified vehicles like its plug-in electric Active Tourer 2-Series, Reuters reports. is the euphemism for that. It's good news that the cars are selling well but it's basically so misleading as to be a flat out lie that those cars are electric. Edit: Also, the Reuters 'source' for that is actually an article about US congress tax overhaul and has no number to back up the article.

jackmott 9y ago
>but it's basically so misleading as to be a flat out lie that those cars are electric. If plug in hybrids count but non plug in hybrids do not, then I disagree with you.
dogma1138 9y ago
The iPerformance 3 series can do 25 miles on battery which while isn't a lot is well below the average daily commute distance in the UK. Don't get me wrong it would be great if it had a proper battery but and it's a big but it's still a £34,000 car which is 1/2 of the starting price for a new Tesla model S in the UK and in all honesty after having the pleasure of driving both on more than one occasion the BMW is a much nicer car to drive, the car feels premium, the interior design is far superior and if I'll ever decide to actually buy a car to own rather than rent or use zip car on the weekends I would go for the iPerformance vs a Tesla in it's current state in a heartbeat. I had a few short drives in an i3 and it's also a pretty good car, but I don't have enough time behind the wheel to form a good opinion and to me it's just too damn ugly. I really wish they would've dresses the i3 like a series 3 or 2 car.
- funnelsgun 9y ago
  I like to drive to Goodwood Motor Circuit once a month or so, which is about 80 miles each way and 160 miles round trip. The drive takes me on some of the best roads in West Sussex, with some truly amazing cars (think Lamborghinis from the 70s and 80s, Porsche Carrera GTs and old 911s) and as such you can imagine we're too busy having fun to worry about economy. I can do the trip there and back in 3/4 of a tank (11l/100km, or 25MPG). However, I genuinely worry that if I bought a Model S I would not be able to make the same trip on a single charge. There is a video on YouTube of someone driving their 85D on the Nurburgring and in 10 minutes the car has gone from 90% to 60% charge. Given that these roads allow for a lot of throttle use I expect I'd run out after 100 miles at best. Sure, you could argue that we should drive slower, more economically, with less throttle. However, if electric cars are going to be fun and appealing to enthusiasts I think electric cars need to start matching ICE cars when it comes to range under high load, and I think the leading cause of such poor range when driving the car in a more demanding style is the extra weight electric cars have to carry over their ICE counterparts (a P100D is almost 40% heavier than its ICE equivalent, such as a BMW F80 M3).
  - npunt 9y ago
    Model S is equivalent to a 7 series, not a 3 series. P100D is 4960lbs, 750 xDrive is 4623. That’s not 40% heavier.
    - funnelsgun 9y ago
      Model S is nothing like a 7 series or an S class. These are both executive cars and their class is decided on wheel base. In the EU a Model S is an S-segment car, whereas the 7 series and S class are F-segment cars. The two don't even compare. You could compare a P100D to an F10 M5, which is 4,288lb - almost 600lb lighter than the Model S.
      - npunt 9y ago
        Ok, 15% heavier. Nobody compares a model S to a 3 series is my point. I didn’t realize the 7 had grown so much (126” wheelbase is nuts)
        dogma1138 9y ago
        IIRC wheelbase of the 330e is 2.85m the Model S is 2.95m the 530e is 2.975m. I really don’t see that many problems with comparing the Model S to either tbh.
    - dogma1138 9y ago
      The Model S is heavy because of the battery. Finish, comfort handling and in many other ways it’s much lower than the high end series 3/5 yet alone 7. BMW just like Benz has a big overlap between its series. The model S is an amazing car but it’s handling is subpar mostly due to its weight and it’s furnishing is a joke compared to even entry level luxury sedans.
      - npunt 9y ago
        Agree furnishing isn’t up to the others, was comparing similar sizes. Comparing to 3 series is the silly part. 5 series is more accurate comparo, tho its not exactly apples to apples due to interior size differences w electric. Doesn’t really matter why a car is heavier.
- prodent 9y ago
  > 25 miles (...) well below the average daily commute distance in the UK. Don't you mean above?
danans 9y ago
Perhaps the title could be better expressed with the term "plug-in vehicle" but PHEVs are no less EVs than pure EVs from the technology perspective. The ICE is a bridge technology for certain use cases not served by current pure EVs at the same price (at least before the Chevy Bolt). From an electric miles driven perspective they are worse only if not used in their ideal drive cycle, which is mostly short local electric powered trips and occasional longer gas powered trips. And if taken as an indication of consumer sentiment toward plug-in vehicles, including PHEVs definitely makes sense, especially since people pay a premium for them over similar ICE cars.
- cryptoz 9y ago
  > PHEVs are no less EVs than pure EVs from the technology perspective. What? This doesn't make any sense. From wikipedia PHEVs have > an on-board internal combustion engine and generator. If the factory that makes these cars is building ICE engines and putting them in cars, and consumers have cars with ICE engines in them, then "from the technology perspective" there is a massive difference! A car manufactured to burn gas sometimes is not an electric car. The patents on the car have gasoline engines. The people who make it are investing in and building gas engines. The people buying the cars are assisting in development of gas engines. From a technology perspective there are huge, huge differences. I'm not against the bridge technology. I get that it has uses. But it's not an electric car.
  - BoorishBears 9y ago
    > PHEVs are no less EVs than pure EVs from the technology perspective. > What? This doesn't make any sense. It makes more sense if you drive one. The EV range lets you drive as a full EV for 99% of your drives, and a very efficient hybrid for long ones (since the battery can reserve enough energy to let the engine only work at it's most efficient range). I went almost 3,000 miles before needing to put gas in mine, and only needed that because of a 200 mile trip I took. Once you exceed something like 25 miles of EV-only range, a PHEV is closer to an EV than a Hybrid.
    - cryptoz 9y ago

jackmott 9y ago

>but it's basically so misleading as to be a flat out lie that those cars are electric. If plug in hybrids count but non plug in hybrids do not, then I disagree with you.

dogma1138 9y ago

The iPerformance 3 series can do 25 miles on battery which while isn't a lot is well below the average daily commute distance in the UK. Don't get me wrong it would be great if it had a proper battery but and it's a big but it's still a £34,000 car which is 1/2 of the starting price for a new Tesla model S in the UK and in all honesty after having the pleasure of driving both on more than one occasion the BMW is a much nicer car to drive, the car feels premium, the interior design is far superior and if I'll ever decide to actually buy a car to own rather than rent or use zip car on the weekends I would go for the iPerformance vs a Tesla in it's current state in a heartbeat. I had a few short drives in an i3 and it's also a pretty good car, but I don't have enough time behind the wheel to form a good opinion and to me it's just too damn ugly. I really wish they would've dresses the i3 like a series 3 or 2 car.

funnelsgun 9y ago
I like to drive to Goodwood Motor Circuit once a month or so, which is about 80 miles each way and 160 miles round trip. The drive takes me on some of the best roads in West Sussex, with some truly amazing cars (think Lamborghinis from the 70s and 80s, Porsche Carrera GTs and old 911s) and as such you can imagine we're too busy having fun to worry about economy. I can do the trip there and back in 3/4 of a tank (11l/100km, or 25MPG). However, I genuinely worry that if I bought a Model S I would not be able to make the same trip on a single charge. There is a video on YouTube of someone driving their 85D on the Nurburgring and in 10 minutes the car has gone from 90% to 60% charge. Given that these roads allow for a lot of throttle use I expect I'd run out after 100 miles at best. Sure, you could argue that we should drive slower, more economically, with less throttle. However, if electric cars are going to be fun and appealing to enthusiasts I think electric cars need to start matching ICE cars when it comes to range under high load, and I think the leading cause of such poor range when driving the car in a more demanding style is the extra weight electric cars have to carry over their ICE counterparts (a P100D is almost 40% heavier than its ICE equivalent, such as a BMW F80 M3).
- npunt 9y ago
  Model S is equivalent to a 7 series, not a 3 series. P100D is 4960lbs, 750 xDrive is 4623. That’s not 40% heavier.
  - funnelsgun 9y ago
    Model S is nothing like a 7 series or an S class. These are both executive cars and their class is decided on wheel base. In the EU a Model S is an S-segment car, whereas the 7 series and S class are F-segment cars. The two don't even compare. You could compare a P100D to an F10 M5, which is 4,288lb - almost 600lb lighter than the Model S.
    - npunt 9y ago
      Ok, 15% heavier. Nobody compares a model S to a 3 series is my point. I didn’t realize the 7 had grown so much (126” wheelbase is nuts)
      - dogma1138 9y ago
        IIRC wheelbase of the 330e is 2.85m the Model S is 2.95m the 530e is 2.975m. I really don’t see that many problems with comparing the Model S to either tbh.
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    The Model S is heavy because of the battery. Finish, comfort handling and in many other ways it’s much lower than the high end series 3/5 yet alone 7. BMW just like Benz has a big overlap between its series. The model S is an amazing car but it’s handling is subpar mostly due to its weight and it’s furnishing is a joke compared to even entry level luxury sedans.
    - npunt 9y ago
      Agree furnishing isn’t up to the others, was comparing similar sizes. Comparing to 3 series is the silly part. 5 series is more accurate comparo, tho its not exactly apples to apples due to interior size differences w electric. Doesn’t really matter why a car is heavier.
prodent 9y ago
> 25 miles (...) well below the average daily commute distance in the UK. Don't you mean above?

danans 9y ago

Perhaps the title could be better expressed with the term "plug-in vehicle" but PHEVs are no less EVs than pure EVs from the technology perspective. The ICE is a bridge technology for certain use cases not served by current pure EVs at the same price (at least before the Chevy Bolt). From an electric miles driven perspective they are worse only if not used in their ideal drive cycle, which is mostly short local electric powered trips and occasional longer gas powered trips. And if taken as an indication of consumer sentiment toward plug-in vehicles, including PHEVs definitely makes sense, especially since people pay a premium for them over similar ICE cars.

cryptoz 9y ago
> PHEVs are no less EVs than pure EVs from the technology perspective. What? This doesn't make any sense. From wikipedia PHEVs have > an on-board internal combustion engine and generator. If the factory that makes these cars is building ICE engines and putting them in cars, and consumers have cars with ICE engines in them, then "from the technology perspective" there is a massive difference! A car manufactured to burn gas sometimes is not an electric car. The patents on the car have gasoline engines. The people who make it are investing in and building gas engines. The people buying the cars are assisting in development of gas engines. From a technology perspective there are huge, huge differences. I'm not against the bridge technology. I get that it has uses. But it's not an electric car.
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  > PHEVs are no less EVs than pure EVs from the technology perspective. > What? This doesn't make any sense. It makes more sense if you drive one. The EV range lets you drive as a full EV for 99% of your drives, and a very efficient hybrid for long ones (since the battery can reserve enough energy to let the engine only work at it's most efficient range). I went almost 3,000 miles before needing to put gas in mine, and only needed that because of a 200 mile trip I took. Once you exceed something like 25 miles of EV-only range, a PHEV is closer to an EV than a Hybrid.
  - cryptoz 9y ago