4 ms·

I think a large part of the problem is that the younger generations have grown up with pretty strong expectations placed upon them to do things like go to colle

I think a large part of the problem is that the younger generations have grown up with pretty strong expectations placed upon them to do things like go to college (at whatever cost), land a white collar job, climb the ladder, etc. The obvious solution is to own your decisions and start doing what you think is right for you, but it's far easier said than done to step out from under the expectations you've been saddled with your entire life.

Jhsto 9y ago
I think you are right. Just the other day there was a posting in our anonymous university group chat and someone complained how she thinks she is unable to start and finish masters degree and its thesis work. The first suggestion which adviced taking time off to re-evaluate her choices of continuing with graduate studies were downvoted. Instead, replies supporting going through the masters with various lifehacks, even though the OP clearly states she doesn't want to do it, were upvoted. I understand its natural for students to pep talk their peers to study more, but I don't understand why controversial suggestions are being dismissed. I almost feel like these calls for help are just seeking validation to continue hoop jumping instead of actually finding alternative ways to fix the root cause. It makes me sad to think that my peers don't think they are ready for working life until they graduate, whilst I would, as an employer, much rather hire someone capable of self-inspection and listening of people with differentiating viewpoints.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  There's an experience I had in undergrad that's always stuck with me. The computer science department and the careers office jointly brought in some startup founders to talk about founding or joining startups and take questions; it was really quite a good idea. Someone asked about degrees and majors - do you need a Master's, which degrees are 'relevant', and so on. The first few founders hemmed and hawed, said "technical skills from any degree" and "undergrad is enough" and so on. The last founder didn't play the game. His answer was: "I'm not worried about your name on a sheet of paper. If you're good at what you do, I'll hire you." Cue nervous laughter from the moderator, and a gentle prompt: "but of course it's worth finishing up school for the people who are already here, those are valuable skills, right?" Founder: "I guess I was unclear. If you drop out today, I will hire you. I recommend it." The next year that panel wasn't repeated.
  - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    Yet we all know that virtually every programming job advertised requires a computer science degree, I'm not convinced it was good advice given the way most companies hire.
    - vvanders 9y ago
      Just because it's advertised doesn't mean it's actually required. Much like companies asking for 10 years of Rust experience, from what I've seen qualifications tend to matter less as you get further along in your career.
    - leetcrew 9y ago
      the founder was basically saying that, if he somehow knew before the fact that you were good, he would hire you. he certainly would not just hire an arbitrary college dropout. it's essentially a vacuous conditional that sidesteps the fact that a college degree is widely considered a signifier of some minimal level of skill and will of course be one of the primary ways that applicants are evaluated, unless they somehow have substantial work experience at the age of 20.
      - Jhsto 9y ago
        > unless they somehow have substantial work experience at the age of 20 This is going to be very anecdotal, but that merit is even more run by buzzwords than qualitative inspection of one's skills compared to a degree. I had the privilege to be employed as 20-year old in Silicon Valley as a foreigner, but I did not find myself doing more challenging work than I had before. However, namedropping Silicon Valley on my CV had huge implications back in my home country once I returned (because ironically I did not have a degree). The interesting part is that not a single workplace back in my home country has yet conducted a technical review for me, yet I have been given offer letters. What I am saying is that while some people feel like a BSc is a dumb obligation, the path of having a prestigious CV isn't much better. Instead, if you happen to have one, the chances are that some CV buzzwords are regarded as, as you said about degrees: > considered a signifier of some minimal level of skill and will of course be one of the primary ways that applicants are evaluated Yet I find this alarmingly false. This has caused me to stray away of those companies, as I don't really want to be employed somewhere where people are hired like this either.
Bartweiss 9y ago
Expectations and also demands; as the precariat grows, and the unnecessariat under it, there's steadily more risk to striking out on one's own. Certainly a six-figure salary is not necessary for happiness, but if you find yourself working long hours to make rent in some midwestern town it's going to cut into your opportunities for self-discovery and joy. And if you got wise a bit too late, after picking up federal student loans, you might well find that your dream career is genuinely off the table. (Found your true calling as a firefighter? Better keep up on those loans or you'll lose your license.) It seems like we've created a system where the straight-and-narrow is increasingly narrow, and the cliffs around it are increasingly high. It's still worth finding one's own path, but in both social and purely-practical terms it's gotten steadily harder.
- 77pt77 9y ago
  > It seems like we've created a system where the straight-and-narrow is increasingly narrow, and the cliffs around it are increasingly high. It's still worth finding one's own path, but in both social and purely-practical terms it's gotten steadily harder. On the one hand yes, on the other hand mobility at every level has never been greater, even if still not at the optimal level.
  - dota_fanatic 9y ago
    Can you provide some evidence for this claim? Inequality has grown pretty systematically since the '70s, and though I don't have the link, there was a study recently demonstrating that it's harder to move up than it was for our parent's parents...
  - goldfeld 9y ago
    The lottery doesn't care about your class. Still doesn't mean many people get mobility out of it.
  - Bartweiss 9y ago
    "Mobility at every level has never been greater" is a completely unfamiliar claim to me. I literally can't find a single plausible source saying that about socioeconomic mobility - they all say it's been flat or falling for at least 20 years. Are we maybe talking about different forms of mobility? From Wikipedia: "In recent years, several studies have found that vertical intergenerational mobility is lower in the US than in some European countries.[1] US social mobility has either remained unchanged or decreased since the 1970s.[2]" "A study published in 2008 showed that economic mobility in the U.S. increased from 1950 to 1980, but has declined sharply since 1980.[3]" "A 2013 Brookings Institution study found income inequality was increasing and becoming more permanent, sharply reducing social mobility.[4]" [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?sq=mobility&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-t... [2] http://www.economist.com/node/3518560?story_id=3518560 http://www.economist.com/node/3518560?story_id=3518560 [3] http://jhr.uwpress.org/content/43/1/139.refs http://jhr.uwpress.org/content/43/1/139.refs [4] http://www.brookings.edu/about/projects/bpea/latest-conference/2013-spring-permanent-inequality-panousi http://www.brookings.edu/about/projects/bpea/latest-conferen...
zcdziura 9y ago
That's exactly it, I think. Not long ago when I was still in high school, many of my peers worked incredibly hard to be able to go to college. I'm not sure that many of them knew exactly what they wanted to study while in college, but I know that many of them went away and then came back because it "wasn't for them"; whether that means they were lonely as described in this article, or realized that what they were studying and where was a mistake for them. Either way, last I checked, many of my peers are back at home in familiar territory. As I'm not a parent, I have no idea how the modern child is raised or how the modern parent is "expected" to raise their kid, but I get the feeling that, on the whole, creativity and exploration aren't encouraged in young children; rather their lives revolve around structured activities where the agenda is decided ahead of time for them. That's a great way to keep kids busy, but I'm not sure if or how it develops their brains and senses of independence... But I have no actual proof of that claim, just anecdotal evidence from seeing my aunt and grandparents raise my younger cousins.
bfrydl 9y ago
Especially when you only come to this realization after going into massive debt following the path society said you should take.
konart 9y ago
>go to college Lucky ones. Here in Russia you are expected to have university diploma by 21-22, otherwise you are close to being treated as subhuman, lol. As a result - huge paint for many people, depreciation of higher education etc.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  That's definitely a risk, and for all our pressure to go to college it's less bad in the US than elsewhere. I know Japan still has "simultaneous hiring", where a whole graduating class gets hired at once, and if you don't have a degree and a job on schedule you either avoid graduating or risk being marginalized. Compared to something like that, the US is still admirably willing to let people take time off school, drop out, or just spend some time unemployed after graduating.
  - hkmurakami 9y ago
    Even in the US, not participating in on campus recruiting makes the job hunt much harder as a new grad (from personal experience). That being said I agree that the penalty is much less than in Japan where entire careers will close their doors on you for basically the rest of your life. In the US we have opportunities to claw back even after we have setbacks.

Jhsto 9y ago

I think you are right. Just the other day there was a posting in our anonymous university group chat and someone complained how she thinks she is unable to start and finish masters degree and its thesis work. The first suggestion which adviced taking time off to re-evaluate her choices of continuing with graduate studies were downvoted. Instead, replies supporting going through the masters with various lifehacks, even though the OP clearly states she doesn't want to do it, were upvoted. I understand its natural for students to pep talk their peers to study more, but I don't understand why controversial suggestions are being dismissed. I almost feel like these calls for help are just seeking validation to continue hoop jumping instead of actually finding alternative ways to fix the root cause. It makes me sad to think that my peers don't think they are ready for working life until they graduate, whilst I would, as an employer, much rather hire someone capable of self-inspection and listening of people with differentiating viewpoints.

Bartweiss 9y ago
There's an experience I had in undergrad that's always stuck with me. The computer science department and the careers office jointly brought in some startup founders to talk about founding or joining startups and take questions; it was really quite a good idea. Someone asked about degrees and majors - do you need a Master's, which degrees are 'relevant', and so on. The first few founders hemmed and hawed, said "technical skills from any degree" and "undergrad is enough" and so on. The last founder didn't play the game. His answer was: "I'm not worried about your name on a sheet of paper. If you're good at what you do, I'll hire you." Cue nervous laughter from the moderator, and a gentle prompt: "but of course it's worth finishing up school for the people who are already here, those are valuable skills, right?" Founder: "I guess I was unclear. If you drop out today, I will hire you. I recommend it." The next year that panel wasn't repeated.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  Yet we all know that virtually every programming job advertised requires a computer science degree, I'm not convinced it was good advice given the way most companies hire.
  - vvanders 9y ago
    Just because it's advertised doesn't mean it's actually required. Much like companies asking for 10 years of Rust experience, from what I've seen qualifications tend to matter less as you get further along in your career.
  - leetcrew 9y ago
    the founder was basically saying that, if he somehow knew before the fact that you were good, he would hire you. he certainly would not just hire an arbitrary college dropout. it's essentially a vacuous conditional that sidesteps the fact that a college degree is widely considered a signifier of some minimal level of skill and will of course be one of the primary ways that applicants are evaluated, unless they somehow have substantial work experience at the age of 20.
    - Jhsto 9y ago
      > unless they somehow have substantial work experience at the age of 20 This is going to be very anecdotal, but that merit is even more run by buzzwords than qualitative inspection of one's skills compared to a degree. I had the privilege to be employed as 20-year old in Silicon Valley as a foreigner, but I did not find myself doing more challenging work than I had before. However, namedropping Silicon Valley on my CV had huge implications back in my home country once I returned (because ironically I did not have a degree). The interesting part is that not a single workplace back in my home country has yet conducted a technical review for me, yet I have been given offer letters. What I am saying is that while some people feel like a BSc is a dumb obligation, the path of having a prestigious CV isn't much better. Instead, if you happen to have one, the chances are that some CV buzzwords are regarded as, as you said about degrees: > considered a signifier of some minimal level of skill and will of course be one of the primary ways that applicants are evaluated Yet I find this alarmingly false. This has caused me to stray away of those companies, as I don't really want to be employed somewhere where people are hired like this either.

Bartweiss 9y ago

Expectations and also demands; as the precariat grows, and the unnecessariat under it, there's steadily more risk to striking out on one's own. Certainly a six-figure salary is not necessary for happiness, but if you find yourself working long hours to make rent in some midwestern town it's going to cut into your opportunities for self-discovery and joy. And if you got wise a bit too late, after picking up federal student loans, you might well find that your dream career is genuinely off the table. (Found your true calling as a firefighter? Better keep up on those loans or you'll lose your license.) It seems like we've created a system where the straight-and-narrow is increasingly narrow, and the cliffs around it are increasingly high. It's still worth finding one's own path, but in both social and purely-practical terms it's gotten steadily harder.

77pt77 9y ago
> It seems like we've created a system where the straight-and-narrow is increasingly narrow, and the cliffs around it are increasingly high. It's still worth finding one's own path, but in both social and purely-practical terms it's gotten steadily harder. On the one hand yes, on the other hand mobility at every level has never been greater, even if still not at the optimal level.
- dota_fanatic 9y ago
  Can you provide some evidence for this claim? Inequality has grown pretty systematically since the '70s, and though I don't have the link, there was a study recently demonstrating that it's harder to move up than it was for our parent's parents...
- goldfeld 9y ago
  The lottery doesn't care about your class. Still doesn't mean many people get mobility out of it.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  "Mobility at every level has never been greater" is a completely unfamiliar claim to me. I literally can't find a single plausible source saying that about socioeconomic mobility - they all say it's been flat or falling for at least 20 years. Are we maybe talking about different forms of mobility? From Wikipedia: "In recent years, several studies have found that vertical intergenerational mobility is lower in the US than in some European countries.[1] US social mobility has either remained unchanged or decreased since the 1970s.[2]" "A study published in 2008 showed that economic mobility in the U.S. increased from 1950 to 1980, but has declined sharply since 1980.[3]" "A 2013 Brookings Institution study found income inequality was increasing and becoming more permanent, sharply reducing social mobility.[4]" [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?sq=mobility&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-t... [2] http://www.economist.com/node/3518560?story_id=3518560 http://www.economist.com/node/3518560?story_id=3518560 [3] http://jhr.uwpress.org/content/43/1/139.refs http://jhr.uwpress.org/content/43/1/139.refs [4] http://www.brookings.edu/about/projects/bpea/latest-conference/2013-spring-permanent-inequality-panousi http://www.brookings.edu/about/projects/bpea/latest-conferen...

zcdziura 9y ago

That's exactly it, I think. Not long ago when I was still in high school, many of my peers worked incredibly hard to be able to go to college. I'm not sure that many of them knew exactly what they wanted to study while in college, but I know that many of them went away and then came back because it "wasn't for them"; whether that means they were lonely as described in this article, or realized that what they were studying and where was a mistake for them. Either way, last I checked, many of my peers are back at home in familiar territory. As I'm not a parent, I have no idea how the modern child is raised or how the modern parent is "expected" to raise their kid, but I get the feeling that, on the whole, creativity and exploration aren't encouraged in young children; rather their lives revolve around structured activities where the agenda is decided ahead of time for them. That's a great way to keep kids busy, but I'm not sure if or how it develops their brains and senses of independence... But I have no actual proof of that claim, just anecdotal evidence from seeing my aunt and grandparents raise my younger cousins.

bfrydl 9y ago

Especially when you only come to this realization after going into massive debt following the path society said you should take.

konart 9y ago

>go to college Lucky ones. Here in Russia you are expected to have university diploma by 21-22, otherwise you are close to being treated as subhuman, lol. As a result - huge paint for many people, depreciation of higher education etc.

Bartweiss 9y ago
That's definitely a risk, and for all our pressure to go to college it's less bad in the US than elsewhere. I know Japan still has "simultaneous hiring", where a whole graduating class gets hired at once, and if you don't have a degree and a job on schedule you either avoid graduating or risk being marginalized. Compared to something like that, the US is still admirably willing to let people take time off school, drop out, or just spend some time unemployed after graduating.
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  Even in the US, not participating in on campus recruiting makes the job hunt much harder as a new grad (from personal experience). That being said I agree that the penalty is much less than in Japan where entire careers will close their doors on you for basically the rest of your life. In the US we have opportunities to claw back even after we have setbacks.