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I love this part: > Estonia’s only currency is the euro and this is an essential feature of our EU membership, which we are proud to have. No one here is inter

I love this part: > Estonia’s only currency is the euro and this is an essential feature of our EU membership, which we are proud to have. No one here is interested in changing that. OK, great. Next sentence: > That’s why we have always referred to estcoin as a proposed ‘crypto token’. (top highlight!) Wow, clever! It's not a currency! Oppressive EU regulations (that we agree with and are not interested in changing) have been obeyed. Next sentence: > Governments do need to consider the disruptive impact of how crypto tokens can be used as currency Hahaha. Sorry, but this "we're launching a currency that we don't call a currency but that everybody, including us, knows is meant to be a currency <wink>" is ridiculous. All that said, I think issuing some sort of government-backed currency might be one way of experimenting with implementing a universal basic income, in order to combat poverty among your citizens. But I don't see that discussed in the article.

microcolonel 9y ago
It's not just ridiculous, but brilliant. The new German empire is most likely too fragile and legalistic to apply currency regulations to this.
- tom_mellior 9y ago
  Every definition of the term "legalistic" that I find seems to be something like "intent on upholding the law". So... you're contradicting yourself?
- johnchristopher 9y ago
  What's the new German empire ? Today's Germany territory or the "Germanic" nations ? (or something else)
  - aluhut 9y ago
    I bet 1 Estcoin that he was saying Europe is being controlled by Germany.
  - Trundle 9y ago
    EU = German empire
    - baxtr 9y ago
      Oh you mean along the lines of World = US empire
      - notwedtm 9y ago
        Oh you mean along the lines of Some highly generalized social group = perceived leader of previously mentioned social group.
        nmca 9y ago
        CAPTCHA passed
      - dashoffset 9y ago
        "World" is neither a political nor an economic union.
  - rusk 9y ago
    I think the thing you have to remember about Germany, is that it's one of the top 5 exporting nations in the world up there with China, the US, Japan ... It's only as a matter of course that in any economic union such a force would have significant heft. Anyone that isn't happy with that can and should improve their export game.
    - vk23 9y ago
      The german export surplus has been criticized in the past for damaging the economy of other countries (esp. in the EU). It is not possible for every country to copy this system because someone has to import all the stuff you are exporting.
      - rusk 9y ago
        I agree with this to a point, as an occupant of a peripheral nation. In particular how the depressed Euro helps them out because it reduces the cost of their exports. But, you simply can't argue with German productivity! Or the general quality of the goods they produce, and when it comes to getting good value groceries around Europe again it's the German supermarkets that are leading the way. There is a problem to solve with regards to how German economic activity is balanced with the social needs of the European area. My personal bug bear is how the peripheral nations are expected to foot the bill of maintaining the periphery themselves, while Germany sits cosily in the centre printing Euros for herself. But at the foot of Germany's success is doubtless her ability to manage her economy better than most, investment in education and to her fostering and nurturing of talent both home grown and from abroad.
        dazc 9y ago
        '...when it comes to getting good value groceries around Europe again it's the German supermarkets that are leading the way.' By producing cheap copies of established branded goods?
        rusk 9y ago
        Not quite. They sell quite a number of branded goods, including a large amount of stuff sourced from the local economy. But anyway, selling unbranded equivalents is pretty much standard across the industry. What knockoffs they do provide are typically of a fairly high standard. No I just think that it's all down to the fact that they're better at business. The weakest of these German chains is in my opinion Lidl, but I'd prefer to go there than the Tesco I have around the corner any day!
mbrock 9y ago
Presumably Estonia is not planning to make Estcoins into legal tender for taxes and debts.
- gepi79 9y ago
  That would be good. My opinion how digital money should be used for debt-free tax-free money to pay e.g. a UBI: http://lustysociety.org/umi.html http://lustysociety.org/umi.html
  - pc86 9y ago
    This trend of lazily posting a link to your personal blog instead of discussing something on a discussion forum needs to die a swift death. And I don't want to turn this personal because you're the hundredth person I've seen do this, but why should anyone here care what you in particular have to say about crypto, UBI, or anything else? All we see is a username and that you've been downvoted below 0. Short of remembering your username, there is zero notion of credibility to "here's my thoughts on the subject! [link]"
    - gepi79 9y ago
      Why this hostility for a link ? If you had visited the web page you would know that the content was quite long for a comment and the formatting would disappear. If you were an academic or a regular internet user, you would know about the virtue of references. You are free to discuss the topic. At least I know why I was downvoted instead of getting a sensible reply. Thanks for that explanation.
      - pc86 9y ago
        I don't have hostility for links, I've upvoted and enjoyed comments where the poster expands on a subject or provides the basis for their opinion with a link to supporting/additional information. That's a reference. It's the laziness of a comment that is entirely or almost entirely "Here's my thoughts: [link]" that closely approximates some sort of pseudo-blogspam traffic generation technique.
mbeex 9y ago
> Hahaha. The EU is shifting. Not everyone loves todays German-ruled course of things (I'm German). This is especially true for the corridor between Baltic Sea and say Austria. These countries - Estonia as a very small one, in particular - have still to take care in how they express themselves in regard to sensible topics. Don't confuse this with non-dedication.
rusk 9y ago
I don't think it's quite a "have your cake and eat it" scenario. I think there should be sufficient leeway for a cryptographic value-exchange medium that is ultimately backed by the Euro? It is an interesting play with words but of course the European policy makers would have to have the last say, and of course it would have to abide by European regulations. As long as it does, how could they possibly have a problem with it?
VanGoghsCoffee 9y ago
The article goes on > However, crypto tokens have far more significance than their > use as a currency and don’t necessarily fall into that category. >From Estonia’s perspective, estcoins were proposed as a way to raise money and support for the development of our digital nation from more people around the world. We would also want to structure the tokens so that they help build our e-resident community and incentivise our own key objective, which is to increase the number of companies started in Estonia through e-Residency. Don't just take the things you want to hear out of context from the original meaning. Founding more Start Ups in Estonia is a valid use case. It's also a way to fight poverty.
- rusk 9y ago
  as a way to raise money and support for the development of our digital nation from more people around the world But ultimately denominated in Euros, right? Otherwise this is just "yet another crypto currency". I'm pretty sure the country wouldn't be allowed otherwise, to set up a parallel economy with its own exchequer besides the ECB?
- roymurdock 9y ago
  OP isn't saying that estcoins won't have any valid use cases and therefore are a bad idea - they even say that estcoin could be used in a UBI experiment. OP argues that Estonia is a member of the EU, and is therefore bound to use the Euro and only the Euro as its national currency. It seems a bit sneaky and underhanded then to launch this cryptoCURRENCY as a "token" rather than a currency. As someone mentioned further down, estonia probably won't make estcoin a legal tender (can't be forced to accept estcoin to settle all debts in court or pay taxes), avoiding the issue of competing directly with the euro while still allowing the government to play with this new tech.
  - fastball 9y ago
    As long as Estonia is backing Estcoins with Euro reserves there shouldn't be an issue.
  - s3krit 9y ago
    >Estonia is a member of the EU, and is therefore bound to use the Euro and only the Euro as its national currency Just a nitpick, this statement isn't quite true. >Nine countries (Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Sweden, and the United Kingdom) are EU members but do not use the euro. [1] The term you are looking for is the Eurozone rather than the EU. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone#Future_enlargement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone#Future_enlargement
kome 9y ago
> All that said, I think issuing some sort of government-backed currency might be one way of experimenting with implementing a universal basic income, in order to combat poverty among your citizens. But I don't see that discussed in the article. It's funny, because we already have a "government-backed currency" but we prefer to bail-out the banks instead of bailing-out individual in distress... I mean: it's not a problem of technology, it's the lack of political will. Crypto-currencies are not different from any other type of currency in this respect. I don't see why they are better fitted to implement a Universal Basic Income. I perhaps see reasons why they are worse than actual money (technological divide, lack of acceptance in shops, difficult to understand).
- danieldw 9y ago
  Actually one good thing would be if there is a real technological divide unemployed people would be forced to become better with tech to claim their welfare, which in turn increases their chances to find jobs. Disabled or old people should not be left out because of this and should be handled in a way.
- runeks 9y ago
  > It's funny, because we already have a "government-backed currency" but we prefer to bail-out the banks instead of bailing-out individual in distress... What, exactly, does “bailing out individuals in distress” comprise?
  - tomrod 9y ago
    I would imagine the standard social safety net: food, unemployment insurance, parental leave, and so on.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    because catastrophic bank failures effect every one
  - PeterisP 9y ago
    That would be if you let the bank go bankrupt but instead compensate the individual depositors up to a certain limit. That won't leave anyone in distress although it will decimate the savings for quite a few people who had a lot of them. The main reason not to do this is because that would usually mean severe distress for many employers whose working capital would be lost and day-to-day business disrupted, possibly (especially during an economic downturn) bankrupting them; causing a ripple throughout the economy as a major bank going down takes down also many unrelated companies, their employees, their suppliers, etc, and possibly toppling the next weaker bank(s) as well.
TomK32 9y ago
> Oppressive EU regulations You do realize that Estonia, just like any other EU country, is part of the leglisative body that creates those rules and regulations?
- TomMarius 9y ago
  Being a part of it doesn't really mean that you agree with it, especially in a democracy.
  - gutnor 9y ago
    Parent chose to use "oppression" - that's one step above disagreeing. Also in the context of present-day Europe, with a lot of successful extreme right eurosceptic parties, the term "oppression" associated to Europe rules is a lot more politically loaded. A bit like "Democrat" in the US does not simply mean someone that likes democracy.
- tom_mellior 9y ago
  That part was tounge-in-cheek, as should be clear from the parenthetical remark that follows it. Sorry for confusing your sarcasm detector. (Also, like a sibling wrote, being part of a decision process doesn't mean that you ultimately agree with all majority decisions, but whatever.)
- mseebach 9y ago
  A regulation can be oppressive even if you had a vote in forming the regulation. The two are only marginally connected to each other. "Democracy is the idea that the people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
avar 9y ago
How do you think issuing a "crypto token" is legally different from the government issuing you a check which it's going to exchange at face value for Euros, which all governments in the Eurozone can do today?
- runeks 9y ago
  Governments can issue all the “crypto tokens” they want, whereas they have to borrow Euros. That being said, if a token has a central issuer, there’s no need to use any form of blockchain technology — digital signatures alone will suffice (add Chaumian blinding to make it more cash-like).
  - avar 9y ago
    The government doesn't need to immediately borrow 1 EUR or have it on hand write you a check for 1 EUR, so the comparison holds.
    - PeterisP 9y ago
      They actually do, governments don't have the power to issue euros, only ECB does. Every EUR the government hands you (in EU not by a check, that's stone age, but on your account) is directly, immediately covered from their reserves (usually within 'their' central bank, who also can't issue new euros) or borrowed from someone, possibly the ECB.
  - sah2ed 9y ago
    Interesting. TIL of Chaumian e-cash and blind signatures. [0] Chaumian e-cash: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9544/how-does-chaum-style-e-cash-work-all-the-wiki-links-are-broken https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9544/how-does-ch... [1] Blind signature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_signature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_signature
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
chris_wot 9y ago
A government backed cryptocurrency based on a decentralised blockchain. There might be a reason this isn’t discussed in the article.
dalbasal 9y ago
Estonia seems to have an interesting take on change generally, the policies (that I hear of, which is few) seem to generally have a light hearted tone. Estcoin is not a threat to the eurozone, so let's not make a big deal of it. When 10,000 people get their salaries in it, then we can talk about EU-level issues. Meanwhile, let em play. I'm generally pro-eurozone and I have no problems with this. If they figure something good out, they can share with the rest of us. Ideas like this are not going to come out of Brussels. Go Estonia!
- WillReplyfFood 9y ago
  I wish europe could allow for such harmless experiments, without some bureucrat feeling threatened in his/her existance.
- nkkollaw 9y ago
  Estonia is awesome. An extremely poor country outside Tallin (according to a single documentary I've watched), they went tech to try to thrive as a country. Takes some balls, it's either that or tax heaven (which is something I think _my_ country--Italy--should do), they went the hardcore route.
theorique 9y ago
Hahaha. Sorry, but this "we're launching a currency that we don't call a currency but that everybody, including us, knows is meant to be a currency <wink>" is ridiculous. Why is it ridiculous for a small EU nation to pay lip service to EU regulations with regard to this financial experiment? What would be a better way to do what they're doing?
- krrrh 9y ago
  Pay actual service to EU regulations? Follow their treaty obligations, or renegotiate the treaty? They admit in the article that it’s a solution looking for a problem, which is a good strategy for creating problems for no reason.
LV-426 9y ago
I think this quote is more telling (about a previous viral article months ago using the non-existent "estcoin" to promote E-Residency), since it's exactly what I thought even before clicking the link: Many people [...] wondered if the whole thing was nothing more than a marketing stunt for the e-Residency programme. I don't think I've ever read an opinion of Estonian E-Residency from an independent party (ie, someone who wasn't involved in it, promoting it every chance they get) that didn't write it off as hype. This article looks like just more of the same.
gwbas1c 9y ago
What if they make a general effort to keep the value 1:1 with Euro? For example, instead of mining, what if only Estonia could generate estcoin? What if Estonia only sold them via Euro, and promised to pay Euro on a 1:1 basis to anyone who sold them back to Estonia?
- cgio 9y ago
  The supply of Euro is managed by the ECB as owner of the monetary policy in Eurozone; with puppyrticipation of the Estonian central bank I assume. Any mechanics of the nature you describe could be employed as alternative means to manage Euro supply in the market.
perseusprime11 9y ago
I am giving 2 more years before everybody gets out of EU. European countries are realizing the long-term implications of EU regulations. Britain got out of EU just in time. EU's fixation on austerity will not bode well for long-term economic growth. Germany's interests are in conflict with other EU countries. Positions on Energy, Immigration, Refugees, Foreign policy keep changing depending on who you are listening to. Can any Europeans here chime in with their perspective?
- matt4077 9y ago
  Britain hasn't actually "gotten out". That won't happen until March 2019 de jure, and probably two years later in real terms, since everything is pointing at an interim period where Britain will remain in the single market with all its features, except their voting rights. The Brutish government is currently getting raked over the coals in negotiations, which serves as an almost daily reminder of the EU's value for member states. Escaping the terrible oppression that is the European Court of Justice, which I just now failed to find any controversial judgement for, appears to be acceptable after all, if it allows your airlines, banks, and software companies to freely do business in the world's largest economic area. Who woulda thunk? Brexit has also had a unifying influence on the rest of the EU: Surveys show trust in the EU at a 10-year high. Almost more importantly, trust in the EU has for 20+ years been higher than trust in the respective national governments and parliaments. See http://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/ResultDoc/download/DocumentKy/81148 http://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/... (page 15). With the elections in France, the Netherlands, the UK, and Germany, anti-EU populism has arguably shown to have passed its peak–a President Trump actually being rather helpful in this regard, thx.
JohnnyConatus 9y ago
Reminds me of the QZ article where the Chinese bitcoin miners all swear they're only interested in blockchain as a technology, not as store of value. Suuuuuure.
eresident_54 9y ago
So I guess you didn't read the part of the article where they actually bring out 3 possible token concepts. One of them is not even tradeable and another would be pegged to Euro. The third one (community estcoin) is more like your typical token but even then, I would be quite surprised if EU would actually put the brakes on the ICO.

microcolonel 9y ago

It's not just ridiculous, but brilliant. The new German empire is most likely too fragile and legalistic to apply currency regulations to this.

tom_mellior 9y ago
Every definition of the term "legalistic" that I find seems to be something like "intent on upholding the law". So... you're contradicting yourself?
johnchristopher 9y ago
What's the new German empire ? Today's Germany territory or the "Germanic" nations ? (or something else)
- aluhut 9y ago
  I bet 1 Estcoin that he was saying Europe is being controlled by Germany.
- Trundle 9y ago
  EU = German empire
  - baxtr 9y ago
    Oh you mean along the lines of World = US empire
    - notwedtm 9y ago
      Oh you mean along the lines of Some highly generalized social group = perceived leader of previously mentioned social group.
      - nmca 9y ago
        CAPTCHA passed
    - dashoffset 9y ago
      "World" is neither a political nor an economic union.
- rusk 9y ago
  I think the thing you have to remember about Germany, is that it's one of the top 5 exporting nations in the world up there with China, the US, Japan ... It's only as a matter of course that in any economic union such a force would have significant heft. Anyone that isn't happy with that can and should improve their export game.
  - vk23 9y ago
    The german export surplus has been criticized in the past for damaging the economy of other countries (esp. in the EU). It is not possible for every country to copy this system because someone has to import all the stuff you are exporting.
    - rusk 9y ago
      I agree with this to a point, as an occupant of a peripheral nation. In particular how the depressed Euro helps them out because it reduces the cost of their exports. But, you simply can't argue with German productivity! Or the general quality of the goods they produce, and when it comes to getting good value groceries around Europe again it's the German supermarkets that are leading the way. There is a problem to solve with regards to how German economic activity is balanced with the social needs of the European area. My personal bug bear is how the peripheral nations are expected to foot the bill of maintaining the periphery themselves, while Germany sits cosily in the centre printing Euros for herself. But at the foot of Germany's success is doubtless her ability to manage her economy better than most, investment in education and to her fostering and nurturing of talent both home grown and from abroad.
      - dazc 9y ago
        '...when it comes to getting good value groceries around Europe again it's the German supermarkets that are leading the way.' By producing cheap copies of established branded goods?
        rusk 9y ago
        Not quite. They sell quite a number of branded goods, including a large amount of stuff sourced from the local economy. But anyway, selling unbranded equivalents is pretty much standard across the industry. What knockoffs they do provide are typically of a fairly high standard. No I just think that it's all down to the fact that they're better at business. The weakest of these German chains is in my opinion Lidl, but I'd prefer to go there than the Tesco I have around the corner any day!

mbrock 9y ago

Presumably Estonia is not planning to make Estcoins into legal tender for taxes and debts.

gepi79 9y ago
That would be good. My opinion how digital money should be used for debt-free tax-free money to pay e.g. a UBI: http://lustysociety.org/umi.html http://lustysociety.org/umi.html
- pc86 9y ago
  This trend of lazily posting a link to your personal blog instead of discussing something on a discussion forum needs to die a swift death. And I don't want to turn this personal because you're the hundredth person I've seen do this, but why should anyone here care what you in particular have to say about crypto, UBI, or anything else? All we see is a username and that you've been downvoted below 0. Short of remembering your username, there is zero notion of credibility to "here's my thoughts on the subject! [link]"
  - gepi79 9y ago
    Why this hostility for a link ? If you had visited the web page you would know that the content was quite long for a comment and the formatting would disappear. If you were an academic or a regular internet user, you would know about the virtue of references. You are free to discuss the topic. At least I know why I was downvoted instead of getting a sensible reply. Thanks for that explanation.
    - pc86 9y ago
      I don't have hostility for links, I've upvoted and enjoyed comments where the poster expands on a subject or provides the basis for their opinion with a link to supporting/additional information. That's a reference. It's the laziness of a comment that is entirely or almost entirely "Here's my thoughts: [link]" that closely approximates some sort of pseudo-blogspam traffic generation technique.

mbeex 9y ago

> Hahaha. The EU is shifting. Not everyone loves todays German-ruled course of things (I'm German). This is especially true for the corridor between Baltic Sea and say Austria. These countries - Estonia as a very small one, in particular - have still to take care in how they express themselves in regard to sensible topics. Don't confuse this with non-dedication.

rusk 9y ago

I don't think it's quite a "have your cake and eat it" scenario. I think there should be sufficient leeway for a cryptographic value-exchange medium that is ultimately backed by the Euro? It is an interesting play with words but of course the European policy makers would have to have the last say, and of course it would have to abide by European regulations. As long as it does, how could they possibly have a problem with it?

VanGoghsCoffee 9y ago

The article goes on > However, crypto tokens have far more significance than their > use as a currency and don’t necessarily fall into that category. >From Estonia’s perspective, estcoins were proposed as a way to raise money and support for the development of our digital nation from more people around the world. We would also want to structure the tokens so that they help build our e-resident community and incentivise our own key objective, which is to increase the number of companies started in Estonia through e-Residency. Don't just take the things you want to hear out of context from the original meaning. Founding more Start Ups in Estonia is a valid use case. It's also a way to fight poverty.

rusk 9y ago
as a way to raise money and support for the development of our digital nation from more people around the world But ultimately denominated in Euros, right? Otherwise this is just "yet another crypto currency". I'm pretty sure the country wouldn't be allowed otherwise, to set up a parallel economy with its own exchequer besides the ECB?
roymurdock 9y ago
OP isn't saying that estcoins won't have any valid use cases and therefore are a bad idea - they even say that estcoin could be used in a UBI experiment. OP argues that Estonia is a member of the EU, and is therefore bound to use the Euro and only the Euro as its national currency. It seems a bit sneaky and underhanded then to launch this cryptoCURRENCY as a "token" rather than a currency. As someone mentioned further down, estonia probably won't make estcoin a legal tender (can't be forced to accept estcoin to settle all debts in court or pay taxes), avoiding the issue of competing directly with the euro while still allowing the government to play with this new tech.
- fastball 9y ago
  As long as Estonia is backing Estcoins with Euro reserves there shouldn't be an issue.
- s3krit 9y ago
  >Estonia is a member of the EU, and is therefore bound to use the Euro and only the Euro as its national currency Just a nitpick, this statement isn't quite true. >Nine countries (Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Sweden, and the United Kingdom) are EU members but do not use the euro. [1] The term you are looking for is the Eurozone rather than the EU. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone#Future_enlargement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone#Future_enlargement

kome 9y ago

> All that said, I think issuing some sort of government-backed currency might be one way of experimenting with implementing a universal basic income, in order to combat poverty among your citizens. But I don't see that discussed in the article. It's funny, because we already have a "government-backed currency" but we prefer to bail-out the banks instead of bailing-out individual in distress... I mean: it's not a problem of technology, it's the lack of political will. Crypto-currencies are not different from any other type of currency in this respect. I don't see why they are better fitted to implement a Universal Basic Income. I perhaps see reasons why they are worse than actual money (technological divide, lack of acceptance in shops, difficult to understand).

danieldw 9y ago
Actually one good thing would be if there is a real technological divide unemployed people would be forced to become better with tech to claim their welfare, which in turn increases their chances to find jobs. Disabled or old people should not be left out because of this and should be handled in a way.
runeks 9y ago
> It's funny, because we already have a "government-backed currency" but we prefer to bail-out the banks instead of bailing-out individual in distress... What, exactly, does “bailing out individuals in distress” comprise?
- tomrod 9y ago
  I would imagine the standard social safety net: food, unemployment insurance, parental leave, and so on.
- walshemj 9y ago
  because catastrophic bank failures effect every one
- PeterisP 9y ago
  That would be if you let the bank go bankrupt but instead compensate the individual depositors up to a certain limit. That won't leave anyone in distress although it will decimate the savings for quite a few people who had a lot of them. The main reason not to do this is because that would usually mean severe distress for many employers whose working capital would be lost and day-to-day business disrupted, possibly (especially during an economic downturn) bankrupting them; causing a ripple throughout the economy as a major bank going down takes down also many unrelated companies, their employees, their suppliers, etc, and possibly toppling the next weaker bank(s) as well.

TomK32 9y ago

> Oppressive EU regulations You do realize that Estonia, just like any other EU country, is part of the leglisative body that creates those rules and regulations?

TomMarius 9y ago
Being a part of it doesn't really mean that you agree with it, especially in a democracy.
- gutnor 9y ago
  Parent chose to use "oppression" - that's one step above disagreeing. Also in the context of present-day Europe, with a lot of successful extreme right eurosceptic parties, the term "oppression" associated to Europe rules is a lot more politically loaded. A bit like "Democrat" in the US does not simply mean someone that likes democracy.
tom_mellior 9y ago
That part was tounge-in-cheek, as should be clear from the parenthetical remark that follows it. Sorry for confusing your sarcasm detector. (Also, like a sibling wrote, being part of a decision process doesn't mean that you ultimately agree with all majority decisions, but whatever.)
mseebach 9y ago
A regulation can be oppressive even if you had a vote in forming the regulation. The two are only marginally connected to each other. "Democracy is the idea that the people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."

avar 9y ago

How do you think issuing a "crypto token" is legally different from the government issuing you a check which it's going to exchange at face value for Euros, which all governments in the Eurozone can do today?

runeks 9y ago
Governments can issue all the “crypto tokens” they want, whereas they have to borrow Euros. That being said, if a token has a central issuer, there’s no need to use any form of blockchain technology — digital signatures alone will suffice (add Chaumian blinding to make it more cash-like).
- avar 9y ago
  The government doesn't need to immediately borrow 1 EUR or have it on hand write you a check for 1 EUR, so the comparison holds.
  - PeterisP 9y ago
    They actually do, governments don't have the power to issue euros, only ECB does. Every EUR the government hands you (in EU not by a check, that's stone age, but on your account) is directly, immediately covered from their reserves (usually within 'their' central bank, who also can't issue new euros) or borrowed from someone, possibly the ECB.
- sah2ed 9y ago
  Interesting. TIL of Chaumian e-cash and blind signatures. [0] Chaumian e-cash: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9544/how-does-chaum-style-e-cash-work-all-the-wiki-links-are-broken https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9544/how-does-ch... [1] Blind signature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_signature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_signature

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

chris_wot 9y ago

A government backed cryptocurrency based on a decentralised blockchain. There might be a reason this isn’t discussed in the article.

dalbasal 9y ago

Estonia seems to have an interesting take on change generally, the policies (that I hear of, which is few) seem to generally have a light hearted tone. Estcoin is not a threat to the eurozone, so let's not make a big deal of it. When 10,000 people get their salaries in it, then we can talk about EU-level issues. Meanwhile, let em play. I'm generally pro-eurozone and I have no problems with this. If they figure something good out, they can share with the rest of us. Ideas like this are not going to come out of Brussels. Go Estonia!

WillReplyfFood 9y ago
I wish europe could allow for such harmless experiments, without some bureucrat feeling threatened in his/her existance.
nkkollaw 9y ago
Estonia is awesome. An extremely poor country outside Tallin (according to a single documentary I've watched), they went tech to try to thrive as a country. Takes some balls, it's either that or tax heaven (which is something I think _my_ country--Italy--should do), they went the hardcore route.

theorique 9y ago

Hahaha. Sorry, but this "we're launching a currency that we don't call a currency but that everybody, including us, knows is meant to be a currency <wink>" is ridiculous. Why is it ridiculous for a small EU nation to pay lip service to EU regulations with regard to this financial experiment? What would be a better way to do what they're doing?

krrrh 9y ago
Pay actual service to EU regulations? Follow their treaty obligations, or renegotiate the treaty? They admit in the article that it’s a solution looking for a problem, which is a good strategy for creating problems for no reason.

LV-426 9y ago

I think this quote is more telling (about a previous viral article months ago using the non-existent "estcoin" to promote E-Residency), since it's exactly what I thought even before clicking the link: Many people [...] wondered if the whole thing was nothing more than a marketing stunt for the e-Residency programme. I don't think I've ever read an opinion of Estonian E-Residency from an independent party (ie, someone who wasn't involved in it, promoting it every chance they get) that didn't write it off as hype. This article looks like just more of the same.

gwbas1c 9y ago

What if they make a general effort to keep the value 1:1 with Euro? For example, instead of mining, what if only Estonia could generate estcoin? What if Estonia only sold them via Euro, and promised to pay Euro on a 1:1 basis to anyone who sold them back to Estonia?

cgio 9y ago
The supply of Euro is managed by the ECB as owner of the monetary policy in Eurozone; with puppyrticipation of the Estonian central bank I assume. Any mechanics of the nature you describe could be employed as alternative means to manage Euro supply in the market.

perseusprime11 9y ago

I am giving 2 more years before everybody gets out of EU. European countries are realizing the long-term implications of EU regulations. Britain got out of EU just in time. EU's fixation on austerity will not bode well for long-term economic growth. Germany's interests are in conflict with other EU countries. Positions on Energy, Immigration, Refugees, Foreign policy keep changing depending on who you are listening to. Can any Europeans here chime in with their perspective?

matt4077 9y ago
Britain hasn't actually "gotten out". That won't happen until March 2019 de jure, and probably two years later in real terms, since everything is pointing at an interim period where Britain will remain in the single market with all its features, except their voting rights. The Brutish government is currently getting raked over the coals in negotiations, which serves as an almost daily reminder of the EU's value for member states. Escaping the terrible oppression that is the European Court of Justice, which I just now failed to find any controversial judgement for, appears to be acceptable after all, if it allows your airlines, banks, and software companies to freely do business in the world's largest economic area. Who woulda thunk? Brexit has also had a unifying influence on the rest of the EU: Surveys show trust in the EU at a 10-year high. Almost more importantly, trust in the EU has for 20+ years been higher than trust in the respective national governments and parliaments. See http://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/ResultDoc/download/DocumentKy/81148 http://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/... (page 15). With the elections in France, the Netherlands, the UK, and Germany, anti-EU populism has arguably shown to have passed its peak–a President Trump actually being rather helpful in this regard, thx.

JohnnyConatus 9y ago

Reminds me of the QZ article where the Chinese bitcoin miners all swear they're only interested in blockchain as a technology, not as store of value. Suuuuuure.

eresident_54 9y ago

So I guess you didn't read the part of the article where they actually bring out 3 possible token concepts. One of them is not even tradeable and another would be pegged to Euro. The third one (community estcoin) is more like your typical token but even then, I would be quite surprised if EU would actually put the brakes on the ICO.