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It's essential to remember that many wars begin with errors of attribution, and many of those errors are intentional or at least reflect a strong bias in the ac

It's essential to remember that many wars begin with errors of attribution, and many of those errors are intentional or at least reflect a strong bias in the accusers. Examples off the top of my head: * 'Remember the Maine' instigated the Spanish-American War, but much evidence says the Maine was destroyed by accident. William Randolph Hearst, a leading publisher of yellow journalism, famously promised a compatriot: "You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war". * The Gulf of Tonkin incident instigated American involvment in the Vietnam War. * Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program, which didn't exist, instigated the Iraq War. In today's case, I trust the source much less than many of those who have made prior errors. I also note that it was a the head of Homeland Security, a political appointee, who made the accusation. It was not the head of the FBI or an intelligence agency; it is not represented, at least in the reporting I've seen, as a consensus of the US intelligence community; I also note that the White House has left some distance between itself and the accusation - it's not made by the President or his National Security Advisor, for example. Also, the very serious accusation rings of hype. North Korea has acted especially badly, largely unchecked, for more than a decade, which is false and a political swipe at the prior President. If that part of the accusation is exaggerated and political, I wonder about the other parts, and I wonder about the accusers ability or willingness to separate politics from very serious policy.

wybiral 9y ago
> North Korea has acted especially badly, largely unchecked, for more than a decade, which is false and a political swipe at the prior President. How is that false? PS: The US government isn't the only group pointing the finger in the direction of NK here [1] [2]. [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40297493 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40297493 [2] https://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/wannacry-ransomware-attacks-show-strong-links-lazarus-group https://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/wannacry-ransomware-a...
astebbin 9y ago
Despite the truth of your historical timeline, 'WannaCry' does neatly fit the profile of Room 39, a department of the North Korean government which raises foreign currency through cybercrime and other criminal activities [0][1]. They have been implicated in past hacks by non-U.S. groups as well, including Kaspersky Labs [2]. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/he-ran-north-koreas-secret-money-making-operation-now-he-lives-in-virginia/2017/07/12/4cb9a590-6584-11e7-94ab-5b1f0ff459df_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/he-ran-nor... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_39#Purpose_and_activities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_39#Purpose_and_activities [2]http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/05/news/economy/north-korea-economy-china-trump-xi/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/05/news/economy/north-korea-eco...
- forapurpose 9y ago
  Thanks; that's valuable to know. And certainly past mis-attribution does not make every attribution false. > 'WannaCry' does neatly fit the profile of Room 39 Let's keep in mind that for state-level intelligence agencies, sophisticated frame jobs are normal activities and attribution of IT attacks is difficult. Again, that doesn't rule out NK in any way, but in this situation the profile of behavior doesn't tell us much (though I do value the other evidence in the parent).
pwaai 9y ago
> North Korea has acted especially badly, largely unchecked, for more than a decade, which is false and a political swipe You couldn't be more wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_involving_North_and_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_invol... They've tried to kill the South Korean president every chance they got, kidnap citizens to train spies, blew up civilian airplanes, killed an American soldier over a fucking tree near the DMZ, multiple tunnels underground for invasion discovered, Pueblo, shelled an island, sunk a frigate. Yeah I'd say they are unchecked and have been acting bad ever since day 1. I mean the whole Korean War started because of that one fat fuck.
- smcl 9y ago
  If that is acting badly then how would you describe how the UK and the US have been acting in the same period? We've overthrown governments, started numerous wars in foreign lands and have the blood of millions of innocent people on our hands. North Korea may have been acting badly, but we can't exactly claim the moral high ground. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"
  - pwaai 9y ago
    > If that is acting badly then how would you describe how the UK and the US have been acting in the same period? ah there's the whataboutism it's an overused and a poor case against the West. Yes, North Korea has been acting particularly bad, as Korean, it strongly irks me when people talk out of their mouth when they aren't familiar with the subject. South Korea has constantly suffered the brunt of North Korea aggression. It's hard to continue a logical debate with somebody who rejects facts and continues to make illogical arguments. Seems like you are born in Czech. I think USSR was in the right when they crushed dissent because Czech was a bad communist country. See how that works?
    - smcl 9y ago
      If you think I've got some anti-west agenda, this is not the case. Here's all that I think - we've basically invaded and ruined so many countries over the last 50 years or so, and generally left them worse off. I want that and the hawkish, pro-war, "the other guys are bad, and we are good" rhetoric to stop. That's it. We can't just bat away all criticism or context by dismissing it as "whataboutism". It is very tempting but it is lazy and it does not serve you - it lets our leaders off the hook, normalises hatred & suffering, and permits the cycle of violence to continue. It also sounds like you're trying to rile me up by making a very "edgy" comment about the Prague Spring but that won't work because: a) I'm not Czech (the "we" I'm referring to is the UK, my home country) b) It was a poorly crafted analogy, in kinda poor taste
stordoff 9y ago
It's possibly _also_ a political swipe, but I fail to see how it's false - North Korea has certainly acted poorly (e.g. the kidnap of thousands). I'll agree that leaving a misleading digital trail is, relatively speaking, easy, but that doesn't mean it's false either - it is entirely fitting with how NK is known to operate.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > 's possibly _also_ a political swipe, but I fail to see how it's false - North Korea has certainly acted poorly (e.g. the kidnap of thousands). The false statement is not that NK is acting badly, but that they are largely unchecked. The U.S. maintains a large military presence and major alliance in S. Korea for the purpose of checking NK. They arm SK and Japan and train with them, specifically to check NK. They pass end enforce domestic and international sanctions, intercept NK ships, spy on NK, and infiltrate and sabotage NK's military programs. The claim that NK is largely unchecked is absurd.

wybiral 9y ago

> North Korea has acted especially badly, largely unchecked, for more than a decade, which is false and a political swipe at the prior President. How is that false? PS: The US government isn't the only group pointing the finger in the direction of NK here [1] [2]. [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40297493 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40297493 [2] https://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/wannacry-ransomware-attacks-show-strong-links-lazarus-group https://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/wannacry-ransomware-a...

astebbin 9y ago

Despite the truth of your historical timeline, 'WannaCry' does neatly fit the profile of Room 39, a department of the North Korean government which raises foreign currency through cybercrime and other criminal activities [0][1]. They have been implicated in past hacks by non-U.S. groups as well, including Kaspersky Labs [2]. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/he-ran-north-koreas-secret-money-making-operation-now-he-lives-in-virginia/2017/07/12/4cb9a590-6584-11e7-94ab-5b1f0ff459df_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/he-ran-nor... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_39#Purpose_and_activities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_39#Purpose_and_activities [2]http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/05/news/economy/north-korea-economy-china-trump-xi/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/05/news/economy/north-korea-eco...

forapurpose 9y ago
Thanks; that's valuable to know. And certainly past mis-attribution does not make every attribution false. > 'WannaCry' does neatly fit the profile of Room 39 Let's keep in mind that for state-level intelligence agencies, sophisticated frame jobs are normal activities and attribution of IT attacks is difficult. Again, that doesn't rule out NK in any way, but in this situation the profile of behavior doesn't tell us much (though I do value the other evidence in the parent).

pwaai 9y ago

> North Korea has acted especially badly, largely unchecked, for more than a decade, which is false and a political swipe You couldn't be more wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_involving_North_and_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_invol... They've tried to kill the South Korean president every chance they got, kidnap citizens to train spies, blew up civilian airplanes, killed an American soldier over a fucking tree near the DMZ, multiple tunnels underground for invasion discovered, Pueblo, shelled an island, sunk a frigate. Yeah I'd say they are unchecked and have been acting bad ever since day 1. I mean the whole Korean War started because of that one fat fuck.

smcl 9y ago
If that is acting badly then how would you describe how the UK and the US have been acting in the same period? We've overthrown governments, started numerous wars in foreign lands and have the blood of millions of innocent people on our hands. North Korea may have been acting badly, but we can't exactly claim the moral high ground. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"
- pwaai 9y ago
  > If that is acting badly then how would you describe how the UK and the US have been acting in the same period? ah there's the whataboutism it's an overused and a poor case against the West. Yes, North Korea has been acting particularly bad, as Korean, it strongly irks me when people talk out of their mouth when they aren't familiar with the subject. South Korea has constantly suffered the brunt of North Korea aggression. It's hard to continue a logical debate with somebody who rejects facts and continues to make illogical arguments. Seems like you are born in Czech. I think USSR was in the right when they crushed dissent because Czech was a bad communist country. See how that works?
  - smcl 9y ago
    If you think I've got some anti-west agenda, this is not the case. Here's all that I think - we've basically invaded and ruined so many countries over the last 50 years or so, and generally left them worse off. I want that and the hawkish, pro-war, "the other guys are bad, and we are good" rhetoric to stop. That's it. We can't just bat away all criticism or context by dismissing it as "whataboutism". It is very tempting but it is lazy and it does not serve you - it lets our leaders off the hook, normalises hatred & suffering, and permits the cycle of violence to continue. It also sounds like you're trying to rile me up by making a very "edgy" comment about the Prague Spring but that won't work because: a) I'm not Czech (the "we" I'm referring to is the UK, my home country) b) It was a poorly crafted analogy, in kinda poor taste

stordoff 9y ago

It's possibly _also_ a political swipe, but I fail to see how it's false - North Korea has certainly acted poorly (e.g. the kidnap of thousands). I'll agree that leaving a misleading digital trail is, relatively speaking, easy, but that doesn't mean it's false either - it is entirely fitting with how NK is known to operate.

forapurpose 9y ago
> 's possibly _also_ a political swipe, but I fail to see how it's false - North Korea has certainly acted poorly (e.g. the kidnap of thousands). The false statement is not that NK is acting badly, but that they are largely unchecked. The U.S. maintains a large military presence and major alliance in S. Korea for the purpose of checking NK. They arm SK and Japan and train with them, specifically to check NK. They pass end enforce domestic and international sanctions, intercept NK ships, spy on NK, and infiltrate and sabotage NK's military programs. The claim that NK is largely unchecked is absurd.