6 ms·

I've got to say, I'm incredibly impressed by how a country with zero computer education or infrastructure manages to launch a successful cyber attack against th

by fiblye 9y ago

I've got to say, I'm incredibly impressed by how a country with zero computer education or infrastructure manages to launch a successful cyber attack against the most militaristically aggressive nation on earth right as that country is trying to pin them--a country with zero conflicts in 60 years--as the world's biggest threat.

slededit 9y ago
They've even got their own Linux distro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS
ztratar 9y ago
Zero conflicts in 60 years? Hah. You forget that NK is still technically at war with South Korea. It's been non-stop conflict for 60+ years.
wybiral 9y ago
It's not as if they don't have computers [1]. Besides, the WannaCry attack was mostly facilitated by exploits that were leaked by Shadow Brokers [2] [3]. The skills required to slap those exploits onto a basic ransomware tool weren't very demanding. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_121 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_121 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EternalBlue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EternalBlue [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DoublePulsar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DoublePulsar
kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
Just like how China funnels missile technology to DPRK and then feigns shock when they have a success, I wouldn't be surprised this was a gift from Unit 61398.
nitwit005 9y ago
There was some kidnapping, terrorism, artillery fire and missile launches in those 60 years. Not exactly what most people would call "zero conflicts". It's not particularly hard to get some software people. You may notice they've trained and hired enough people to run their nuclear program. That's a lot harder than cobbling together some software exploits.
- steve19 9y ago
  They will be employing black hats from around the world and paying them a lot of money. Suddam Hussain used a Canadian to build his supergun for example. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    I remember reading about Bull, interesting stuff. > Bull then started work on the "real" PC-2 machine, a gun that was 150 meters long, weighed 2,100 tonnes, with a bore of one meter (39 inches). It was to be capable of placing a 2,000-kilogram projectile into orbit. Also noticed you were downvoted, can't figure why anyone would do that. Maybe they disagree that NK can employ black hats, but why not just comment on that in a reply...
    - jamoes 9y ago
      As far as I'm aware, a gun can't shoot a projectile into orbit - no matter how high it shoots a ballistic, the ballistic will eventually come back to earth (unless it gets captured by another body's gravitational field). In order to achieve orbit, you need to impart additional energy onto the object in order for it to get enough velocity to actually orbit.
      - rdtsc 9y ago
        You are probably right, I just copied it from Wikipedia verbatim. I did have the "citation needed" label. My pedestrian take on this is if Iraq could afford to build a gun which shoots satellites into orbit, after all these years we'd have a few of those around by now. But it just highlighted the craziness and planned scale of the project. The assassination of course also adds to the intrigue.
      - toomanybeersies 9y ago
        The plan wasn't to get into orbit with the gun alone. They had designed shells that had rocket motors in them, to get them to orbital velocity. The gun was simply the first stage. The critical problem with using a gun though, is the sheer amount of force applied when firing the gun. They couldn't even get dummy payloads to work correctly, the rockets motors warped due to the forces involved.
seanwilson 9y ago
Why? It's not like you have to invest in expensive equipment and enrol into some kind of specialist training programme that only some countries have access to. You just need a computer, access to material online and determination. Plenty of hacks and viruses are done by independent individuals and small groups not linked to the government.
- mbesto 9y ago
  Ya, but you need enable actors to learn. This is the dichotomy I too don't understand about NK - how do you presumably give software engineers access to the internet, while still restricting them to your firewall and still be able to create sophisticated malware. At some point those engineers will "stumble" on information that says "you're not free in your country...get out"...no?
  - wybiral 9y ago
    There have been defectors.
  - freedomben 9y ago
    Simply hearing the message "you're not free in your country...get out" is far from enough for the average person. They are completely inundated from birth with worship of the Great Leader. There's an awesome book called "Mig Pilot" by John Barron that details the story of a Soviet defector in the 80s. He talks about how he believed everything from the US was actually propaganda. He didn't even believe the grocery stores were real. It's a fascinating read.
    - marcoperaza 9y ago
      North Korea punishes your whole family if you misbehave. If you're a North Korean hacker, you're probably living better than 95% of the country. You and your family probably get to live in Pyongyang and get good food, housing, healthcare, opportunities for your children, and so forth. Why would you risk that? What could you, as one person, possibly do that would have any chance of success in fixing your country? The only thing you would get is your whole family thrown into a labor camp for the rest of your lives.
meowface 9y ago
Considering their likely military budget, it's not hard to imagine they could train a small percentage of the military in cyberespionage. Or they could outsource it to other nation-states or organizations. It isn't that difficult to find talented, (ostensibly) nationalistic kids, train them for years, and have them conduct operations like this.
marcoperaza 9y ago
>right as that country is trying to pin them--a country with zero conflicts in 60 years--as the world's biggest threat. What's the implication here? That the US is somehow unjustified in being alarmed by NK becoming a full nuclear power, soon with worldwide ICBM range? Think about the situation in that country. A small cabal of crooks lives like kings while the rest of the country suffers a never ending reign of terror, involving public executions in school yards, horrific labor camps, total surveillance, punishment of whole families, etc. The guy in charge is a sicko who executed his uncle with an anti-aircraft gun, and probably had a good laugh throughout the whole thing. The previous leader, his father, did such things as kidnap South Korean actors to force them to put on shows for him. These are deeply deranged people. Now imagine that regime on the verge of collapse, for one of the many possible reasons that could happen. The cabal of crooks know that they will all be executed by the North Korean people for their crimes. How sure are you that, when that moment comes, the regime won't launch nukes against all of their longtime enemies, just for the hell of it as a parting fuck you to the world?
- fiblye 9y ago
  >What's the implication here? That North Korea is justified in building up their arsenal to protect themselves from a country that has actively sought to topple other governments it simply just doesn't like. That vast majority of threats North Korea makes are "If America does this, we will retaliate." Meanwhile, American politicians endlessly call for preemptive strikes on Iran and North Korea because they've allegedly been on the verge of wiping out humanity for decades now. I've stopped buying the bullshit, but the "Kim Jong Un got gout from cheese and died but only before killing his uncle with an antiaircraft gun" headlines keep rolling.
  - SubiculumCode 9y ago
    If only for how they have oppressed their poor people, the NK regime deserves annihilation.
    - fiblye 9y ago
      If there's one thing America has mastered, it's the art of starting conflicts with "good intentions" like this and causing more harm than their enemy. See: Libya, Vietnam, Iraq. Every few years Americans say "never again", until the media sells the same lies as before and people forget.
foobaw 9y ago
They don't have zero computer education or infrastructure though. Although the details will never be known, they've been known to have a pretty strong education system. I know this example can be considered moot, but their IMO (International Math Olympiad) performance has been stellar, so if they can apply the same methodology to Computer Science and Education, it's possible that they have some skilled "hackers."
- freeflight 9y ago
  They pretty much have their own Linux distro [0], which imho is a very smart thing to do for a nation-state, at least if it's done properly. [0] https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7174-lifting_the_fog_on_red_star_os https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7174-lifting_the_fog_on_red_star...
toomanybeersies 9y ago
> a country with zero conflicts in 60 years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_involving_North_and_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_invol... Incidents ranging all the way up to shelling South Korea and torpedoing their ships. The country has literally been at war since 1950.
malloryerik 9y ago
Lol. They have a determined crew of 6,000 hackers. [0] They stole $100 million from the Bank of Bangladesh in a Dridex attack, and nearly made off with another billion dollars or so. Now, stealing from a needy country like Bangladesh, that's despicable. [1] They also have perhaps the most controlling state in history and they are disciplined, if poor. In fact, according to a holocaust survivor who was subsequently a judge at the International Court of Justice at The Hague, North Korea's political prison system is as bad as or worse than the Nazis'. [2] They have zero human rights, no real justice system, gays and lesbians are put to death, mixed-blood children are murdered by the state (the government is openly and bone-chillingly racist). As for "zero conflicts" you can thank geography and Pax Americana for that as there has been no one for the North Koreans' to attack, though have been constant int'l abductions and assassinations (incl an attempt on the South Korean president), the destruction of a passenger jet, the torpedoing of a South Korean navy vessel, the shelling of a South Korean island, constant drug sales and arms sales by the government including the sale and construction of a nuclear plant to and for Syria, the sale of chemical weapons (those kids killed in gas attacks in Syria, yep, North Korean gas), the overseas sale of hard drugs by the government to raise foreign revenue, and most important and egregious, the wholesale murder and enslavement of their own citizens, if the word "citizen" can be used. In the 1990's during the "Arduous March" the government allowed up to a million people, 5% or the population, to starve unnecessarily while food aid was diverted to the military and funds were used to build up their nuclear program. Malnutrition was the norm. Since being established by the Soviet Union, the DPRK (Democratic People's Republic of Korea -- and the only honest word that name is "Korea") have consistently threatened their neighbors, once invading South Korea with full force after receiving Stalin's approval (a fact which can be read in the Soviet archives). If they haven't attacked again, it's purely because they don't have the means. Oh yes, and they have been hacking, and are considered one of the world's seven cyberpowers along with the U.S., Russia, China, the U.K., Iran, and France. [3] I don't mean to say that nobody ever has a happy life in North Korea. And I don't have time to go on and on about North Korea, but to pretend that they are mere victims is ludicrous. They inherit some of the worst aspects of the old Joseon Dynasty, the Japanese Empire, and Stalin-era Soviet Union, and manage to add to that. This isn't to say that the U.S. is without significant blame, of course not. For example the U.S. punished and traumatize North Koreans with an unbelievably destructive wartime bombing campaign after the North invaded the South. But despite serious mistakes the overall aim of the U.S. has been to create a world of growth and stability. During this Pax Americana, with and because of the help from allies and the creation of a global community of states, the world has indeed grown faster than ever before, despite everything that's gone wrong, and there has been less violence. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15480571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15480571 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Bank_robbery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Bank_robbery [2] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/north-korean-prisons-nazi-camps_us_5a2fad6ce4b0461754330e3d https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/north-korean-prisons-na... [3] https://www.vox.com/world/2017/10/13/16465882/north-korea-cyber-attack-capability-us-military https://www.vox.com/world/2017/10/13/16465882/north-korea-cy...

by fiblye 9y ago

slededit 9y ago

They've even got their own Linux distro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS

ztratar 9y ago

Zero conflicts in 60 years? Hah. You forget that NK is still technically at war with South Korea. It's been non-stop conflict for 60+ years.

wybiral 9y ago

It's not as if they don't have computers [1]. Besides, the WannaCry attack was mostly facilitated by exploits that were leaked by Shadow Brokers [2] [3]. The skills required to slap those exploits onto a basic ransomware tool weren't very demanding. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_121 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_121 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EternalBlue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EternalBlue [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DoublePulsar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DoublePulsar

kevin_thibedeau 9y ago

Just like how China funnels missile technology to DPRK and then feigns shock when they have a success, I wouldn't be surprised this was a gift from Unit 61398.

nitwit005 9y ago

There was some kidnapping, terrorism, artillery fire and missile launches in those 60 years. Not exactly what most people would call "zero conflicts". It's not particularly hard to get some software people. You may notice they've trained and hired enough people to run their nuclear program. That's a lot harder than cobbling together some software exploits.

steve19 9y ago
They will be employing black hats from around the world and paying them a lot of money. Suddam Hussain used a Canadian to build his supergun for example. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull
- rdtsc 9y ago
  I remember reading about Bull, interesting stuff. > Bull then started work on the "real" PC-2 machine, a gun that was 150 meters long, weighed 2,100 tonnes, with a bore of one meter (39 inches). It was to be capable of placing a 2,000-kilogram projectile into orbit. Also noticed you were downvoted, can't figure why anyone would do that. Maybe they disagree that NK can employ black hats, but why not just comment on that in a reply...
  - jamoes 9y ago
    As far as I'm aware, a gun can't shoot a projectile into orbit - no matter how high it shoots a ballistic, the ballistic will eventually come back to earth (unless it gets captured by another body's gravitational field). In order to achieve orbit, you need to impart additional energy onto the object in order for it to get enough velocity to actually orbit.
    - rdtsc 9y ago
      You are probably right, I just copied it from Wikipedia verbatim. I did have the "citation needed" label. My pedestrian take on this is if Iraq could afford to build a gun which shoots satellites into orbit, after all these years we'd have a few of those around by now. But it just highlighted the craziness and planned scale of the project. The assassination of course also adds to the intrigue.
    - toomanybeersies 9y ago
      The plan wasn't to get into orbit with the gun alone. They had designed shells that had rocket motors in them, to get them to orbital velocity. The gun was simply the first stage. The critical problem with using a gun though, is the sheer amount of force applied when firing the gun. They couldn't even get dummy payloads to work correctly, the rockets motors warped due to the forces involved.

seanwilson 9y ago

Why? It's not like you have to invest in expensive equipment and enrol into some kind of specialist training programme that only some countries have access to. You just need a computer, access to material online and determination. Plenty of hacks and viruses are done by independent individuals and small groups not linked to the government.

mbesto 9y ago
Ya, but you need enable actors to learn. This is the dichotomy I too don't understand about NK - how do you presumably give software engineers access to the internet, while still restricting them to your firewall and still be able to create sophisticated malware. At some point those engineers will "stumble" on information that says "you're not free in your country...get out"...no?
- wybiral 9y ago
  There have been defectors.
- freedomben 9y ago
  Simply hearing the message "you're not free in your country...get out" is far from enough for the average person. They are completely inundated from birth with worship of the Great Leader. There's an awesome book called "Mig Pilot" by John Barron that details the story of a Soviet defector in the 80s. He talks about how he believed everything from the US was actually propaganda. He didn't even believe the grocery stores were real. It's a fascinating read.
  - marcoperaza 9y ago
    North Korea punishes your whole family if you misbehave. If you're a North Korean hacker, you're probably living better than 95% of the country. You and your family probably get to live in Pyongyang and get good food, housing, healthcare, opportunities for your children, and so forth. Why would you risk that? What could you, as one person, possibly do that would have any chance of success in fixing your country? The only thing you would get is your whole family thrown into a labor camp for the rest of your lives.

meowface 9y ago

Considering their likely military budget, it's not hard to imagine they could train a small percentage of the military in cyberespionage. Or they could outsource it to other nation-states or organizations. It isn't that difficult to find talented, (ostensibly) nationalistic kids, train them for years, and have them conduct operations like this.

marcoperaza 9y ago

>right as that country is trying to pin them--a country with zero conflicts in 60 years--as the world's biggest threat. What's the implication here? That the US is somehow unjustified in being alarmed by NK becoming a full nuclear power, soon with worldwide ICBM range? Think about the situation in that country. A small cabal of crooks lives like kings while the rest of the country suffers a never ending reign of terror, involving public executions in school yards, horrific labor camps, total surveillance, punishment of whole families, etc. The guy in charge is a sicko who executed his uncle with an anti-aircraft gun, and probably had a good laugh throughout the whole thing. The previous leader, his father, did such things as kidnap South Korean actors to force them to put on shows for him. These are deeply deranged people. Now imagine that regime on the verge of collapse, for one of the many possible reasons that could happen. The cabal of crooks know that they will all be executed by the North Korean people for their crimes. How sure are you that, when that moment comes, the regime won't launch nukes against all of their longtime enemies, just for the hell of it as a parting fuck you to the world?

fiblye 9y ago
>What's the implication here? That North Korea is justified in building up their arsenal to protect themselves from a country that has actively sought to topple other governments it simply just doesn't like. That vast majority of threats North Korea makes are "If America does this, we will retaliate." Meanwhile, American politicians endlessly call for preemptive strikes on Iran and North Korea because they've allegedly been on the verge of wiping out humanity for decades now. I've stopped buying the bullshit, but the "Kim Jong Un got gout from cheese and died but only before killing his uncle with an antiaircraft gun" headlines keep rolling.
- SubiculumCode 9y ago
  If only for how they have oppressed their poor people, the NK regime deserves annihilation.
  - fiblye 9y ago
    If there's one thing America has mastered, it's the art of starting conflicts with "good intentions" like this and causing more harm than their enemy. See: Libya, Vietnam, Iraq. Every few years Americans say "never again", until the media sells the same lies as before and people forget.

foobaw 9y ago

They don't have zero computer education or infrastructure though. Although the details will never be known, they've been known to have a pretty strong education system. I know this example can be considered moot, but their IMO (International Math Olympiad) performance has been stellar, so if they can apply the same methodology to Computer Science and Education, it's possible that they have some skilled "hackers."

freeflight 9y ago
They pretty much have their own Linux distro [0], which imho is a very smart thing to do for a nation-state, at least if it's done properly. [0] https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7174-lifting_the_fog_on_red_star_os https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7174-lifting_the_fog_on_red_star...

toomanybeersies 9y ago

> a country with zero conflicts in 60 years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_involving_North_and_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_invol... Incidents ranging all the way up to shelling South Korea and torpedoing their ships. The country has literally been at war since 1950.

malloryerik 9y ago

Lol. They have a determined crew of 6,000 hackers. [0] They stole $100 million from the Bank of Bangladesh in a Dridex attack, and nearly made off with another billion dollars or so. Now, stealing from a needy country like Bangladesh, that's despicable. [1] They also have perhaps the most controlling state in history and they are disciplined, if poor. In fact, according to a holocaust survivor who was subsequently a judge at the International Court of Justice at The Hague, North Korea's political prison system is as bad as or worse than the Nazis'. [2] They have zero human rights, no real justice system, gays and lesbians are put to death, mixed-blood children are murdered by the state (the government is openly and bone-chillingly racist). As for "zero conflicts" you can thank geography and Pax Americana for that as there has been no one for the North Koreans' to attack, though have been constant int'l abductions and assassinations (incl an attempt on the South Korean president), the destruction of a passenger jet, the torpedoing of a South Korean navy vessel, the shelling of a South Korean island, constant drug sales and arms sales by the government including the sale and construction of a nuclear plant to and for Syria, the sale of chemical weapons (those kids killed in gas attacks in Syria, yep, North Korean gas), the overseas sale of hard drugs by the government to raise foreign revenue, and most important and egregious, the wholesale murder and enslavement of their own citizens, if the word "citizen" can be used. In the 1990's during the "Arduous March" the government allowed up to a million people, 5% or the population, to starve unnecessarily while food aid was diverted to the military and funds were used to build up their nuclear program. Malnutrition was the norm. Since being established by the Soviet Union, the DPRK (Democratic People's Republic of Korea -- and the only honest word that name is "Korea") have consistently threatened their neighbors, once invading South Korea with full force after receiving Stalin's approval (a fact which can be read in the Soviet archives). If they haven't attacked again, it's purely because they don't have the means. Oh yes, and they have been hacking, and are considered one of the world's seven cyberpowers along with the U.S., Russia, China, the U.K., Iran, and France. [3] I don't mean to say that nobody ever has a happy life in North Korea. And I don't have time to go on and on about North Korea, but to pretend that they are mere victims is ludicrous. They inherit some of the worst aspects of the old Joseon Dynasty, the Japanese Empire, and Stalin-era Soviet Union, and manage to add to that. This isn't to say that the U.S. is without significant blame, of course not. For example the U.S. punished and traumatize North Koreans with an unbelievably destructive wartime bombing campaign after the North invaded the South. But despite serious mistakes the overall aim of the U.S. has been to create a world of growth and stability. During this Pax Americana, with and because of the help from allies and the creation of a global community of states, the world has indeed grown faster than ever before, despite everything that's gone wrong, and there has been less violence. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15480571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15480571 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Bank_robbery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Bank_robbery [2] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/north-korean-prisons-nazi-camps_us_5a2fad6ce4b0461754330e3d https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/north-korean-prisons-na... [3] https://www.vox.com/world/2017/10/13/16465882/north-korea-cyber-attack-capability-us-military https://www.vox.com/world/2017/10/13/16465882/north-korea-cy...