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Why has no one mentioned that "wine" to a Brit in 1700 meant FORTIFIED wine like Port wine or Sherry (aka 18-20% alcohol instead of 11-15%)? The fortification o

Why has no one mentioned that "wine" to a Brit in 1700 meant FORTIFIED wine like Port wine or Sherry (aka 18-20% alcohol instead of 11-15%)? The fortification of Port wine is legendarily attributed to both British tastes for sweet or "stalled mid fermentation by addition of spirits" wine, and the voyage by sea, in which normal wines suffered excessively from spoilage etc.

arca_vorago 9y ago
The world was never the same for me once I discovered madeira wine. All the richness of port with half the sweetness.
lqet 9y ago
This is what I thought. I regularly enjoy a "modern" glass of wine, but for port wine, even a full shot glass is too much for me. It's just so heavy and sweet. The glasses depicted in the article seem to hold exactly the amount of port I would be able to comfortably drink in 10-20 minutes.
- bootcampjs 9y ago
  Have you looked into cordial glasses? They’re made for this! They’re the perfect size for a nice port after dinner.
- wahern 9y ago
  Have you tried a Sercial or Verdelho Madeira? Almost all Madeira sold is Malmsey, which is the sweetest. You'll sometimes find bottles of the Boal style, the next sweetest, sold as a digestif if the restaurant is a little more discerning. But the best styles, IMO, are Sercial and Verdelho. Sercial is dry and Verdelho medium-dry[1], IMO have more fascinating flavors, and tend to be more acidic than the sweeter styles, which as a soda drinker I especially like. Both are really good for extended sessions as they're not nearly as cloying as Port. And the Sercial in particular suitable for drinking by the glassful with dinner if you care to splurge. And one of the greatest things about Madeira is that it's already completely oxidized. Opinions very, but as for myself I still enjoy bottles of Madeira that I opened years ago. By contrast, IME an opened bottle of Tawny Port starts to lose its punch after a week or so (on the outside). This is why you can still buy Madeira from the 1800s and even 1700s and still enjoy it today. The oldest enjoyable Ports (Ruby or Tawny) tend to only go back 50 or 100 years if they've been preserved well. If you're not a regular drinker (like me) or are the sole drinker in a household (like me), and don't enjoy hard liquor (like me), then the long shelf-life of opened bottles is really nice. The Historic Series Madeiras from the Rare Wine Co are good exemplars of the various styles https://www.rarewineco.com/rare-wine-co-historic-series-madeira I don't know if they still do, but they used to offer a 4 half bottle sample gift set. [1] Though both still sweeter and thicker (mouth feel) than a Sherry, with less of the distilled spirits-like flavor/smell coming through--which is why I dislike Sherry.
  - fredsted 9y ago
    I love that on HN someone always is an expert in the topic at hand and can provide some interesting knowledge. Thanks!
  - peterwwillis 9y ago
    Honestly, this really downplays Tawny. I have a half-decent bottle of a 2011 LBV Tawny Port, which is about as low quality as I will drink. I opened it probably six to nine months ago, and it's still pretty good, though obviously not at its prime. Traveling around Spain and Portugal you can find Vintage Ports that cost about $25 and will taste absolutely amazing (though I try to stick to above 20-year oaked tawny blends). Quite a few are not very sweet, and not very heavy. Also, Vintage Port has a considerable shelf life. The oldest currently available vintage is 1815.
- mcguire 9y ago
  That's exactly what I was thinking. A modern sherry or port glass is the same size as those illustrated. Note also, "As a supplemental unit of apothecary measure, the wineglass (also known as wineglassful, pl. wineglassesful, or cyathus vinarius in pharmaceutical Latin) was defined as 1⁄8 of a pint, or 2 fluid ounces (2 1⁄2 fluid ounces in the imperial system).[11][12] An older version (before c. 1800) was 1 1⁄2 fluid ounces.[13] These units bear little relation to the capacity of most contemporary wineglasses, or to the ancient Roman cyathus." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_glass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_glass
  - Symbiote 9y ago
    That's 60mL. The earlier version is 45mL. (To nearest 5mL)
kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
But that's just a 1.5x in potency. Doesn't explain the 7x increase in size.
- ino 9y ago
  It is sweeter and more intense, it tastes better in smaller quantities.
- joenathanone 9y ago
  It does, you don't drink liquor the same way you do wine do you?
- microcolonel 9y ago
  The increase in the volume poured is actually more like 4x, the article clearly explains that the glassware tax encouraged, in the region, glassware which was meant to be filled close to the brim, while modern glassware is meant to be filled to a about a third (or if you're not at a dive, often a quarter) full. Furthermore, the difference in sugar content (and overall in non-water contents) is almost as important as ethanol's share of the volume.
  - madcaptenor 9y ago
    My wife is trained as a sommelier. In my understanding sommeliers generally figure five glasses to the bottle. (When we're pouring for ourselves, it's four glasses, because then we don't have to fight over who gets the extra glass.) A bottle is 750 ml, so that's a 150-ml pour (five to the bottle) or 187.5-ml (four to the bottle). As the article says a typical glass holds about 450 ml now.
simonh 9y ago
The taste for fortified wine was also driven by import duties and the evasion of them. Duties were levied on the volume of alcoholic beverages, not their strength so it was relatively cheaper to import stronger drinks. Then again smuggling was rife and sneaking in more concentrated beverages was much more profitable. In fact the existence of many fortified or distilled drinks on the continent, such as Brandy/Cognac was largely driven by British import duties.

arca_vorago 9y ago

The world was never the same for me once I discovered madeira wine. All the richness of port with half the sweetness.

lqet 9y ago

This is what I thought. I regularly enjoy a "modern" glass of wine, but for port wine, even a full shot glass is too much for me. It's just so heavy and sweet. The glasses depicted in the article seem to hold exactly the amount of port I would be able to comfortably drink in 10-20 minutes.

bootcampjs 9y ago
Have you looked into cordial glasses? They’re made for this! They’re the perfect size for a nice port after dinner.
wahern 9y ago
Have you tried a Sercial or Verdelho Madeira? Almost all Madeira sold is Malmsey, which is the sweetest. You'll sometimes find bottles of the Boal style, the next sweetest, sold as a digestif if the restaurant is a little more discerning. But the best styles, IMO, are Sercial and Verdelho. Sercial is dry and Verdelho medium-dry[1], IMO have more fascinating flavors, and tend to be more acidic than the sweeter styles, which as a soda drinker I especially like. Both are really good for extended sessions as they're not nearly as cloying as Port. And the Sercial in particular suitable for drinking by the glassful with dinner if you care to splurge. And one of the greatest things about Madeira is that it's already completely oxidized. Opinions very, but as for myself I still enjoy bottles of Madeira that I opened years ago. By contrast, IME an opened bottle of Tawny Port starts to lose its punch after a week or so (on the outside). This is why you can still buy Madeira from the 1800s and even 1700s and still enjoy it today. The oldest enjoyable Ports (Ruby or Tawny) tend to only go back 50 or 100 years if they've been preserved well. If you're not a regular drinker (like me) or are the sole drinker in a household (like me), and don't enjoy hard liquor (like me), then the long shelf-life of opened bottles is really nice. The Historic Series Madeiras from the Rare Wine Co are good exemplars of the various styles https://www.rarewineco.com/rare-wine-co-historic-series-madeira I don't know if they still do, but they used to offer a 4 half bottle sample gift set. [1] Though both still sweeter and thicker (mouth feel) than a Sherry, with less of the distilled spirits-like flavor/smell coming through--which is why I dislike Sherry.
- fredsted 9y ago
  I love that on HN someone always is an expert in the topic at hand and can provide some interesting knowledge. Thanks!
- peterwwillis 9y ago
  Honestly, this really downplays Tawny. I have a half-decent bottle of a 2011 LBV Tawny Port, which is about as low quality as I will drink. I opened it probably six to nine months ago, and it's still pretty good, though obviously not at its prime. Traveling around Spain and Portugal you can find Vintage Ports that cost about $25 and will taste absolutely amazing (though I try to stick to above 20-year oaked tawny blends). Quite a few are not very sweet, and not very heavy. Also, Vintage Port has a considerable shelf life. The oldest currently available vintage is 1815.
mcguire 9y ago
That's exactly what I was thinking. A modern sherry or port glass is the same size as those illustrated. Note also, "As a supplemental unit of apothecary measure, the wineglass (also known as wineglassful, pl. wineglassesful, or cyathus vinarius in pharmaceutical Latin) was defined as 1⁄8 of a pint, or 2 fluid ounces (2 1⁄2 fluid ounces in the imperial system).[11][12] An older version (before c. 1800) was 1 1⁄2 fluid ounces.[13] These units bear little relation to the capacity of most contemporary wineglasses, or to the ancient Roman cyathus." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_glass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_glass
- Symbiote 9y ago
  That's 60mL. The earlier version is 45mL. (To nearest 5mL)

kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago

But that's just a 1.5x in potency. Doesn't explain the 7x increase in size.

ino 9y ago
It is sweeter and more intense, it tastes better in smaller quantities.
joenathanone 9y ago
It does, you don't drink liquor the same way you do wine do you?
microcolonel 9y ago
The increase in the volume poured is actually more like 4x, the article clearly explains that the glassware tax encouraged, in the region, glassware which was meant to be filled close to the brim, while modern glassware is meant to be filled to a about a third (or if you're not at a dive, often a quarter) full. Furthermore, the difference in sugar content (and overall in non-water contents) is almost as important as ethanol's share of the volume.
- madcaptenor 9y ago
  My wife is trained as a sommelier. In my understanding sommeliers generally figure five glasses to the bottle. (When we're pouring for ourselves, it's four glasses, because then we don't have to fight over who gets the extra glass.) A bottle is 750 ml, so that's a 150-ml pour (five to the bottle) or 187.5-ml (four to the bottle). As the article says a typical glass holds about 450 ml now.

simonh 9y ago

The taste for fortified wine was also driven by import duties and the evasion of them. Duties were levied on the volume of alcoholic beverages, not their strength so it was relatively cheaper to import stronger drinks. Then again smuggling was rife and sneaking in more concentrated beverages was much more profitable. In fact the existence of many fortified or distilled drinks on the continent, such as Brandy/Cognac was largely driven by British import duties.