6 ms·

I hear most perpetrators of sexual assault are men, shouldn’t your advice be more effective at prevention/avoidance if directed at sons instead?

DoreenMichele 9y ago
I would like to see all children get the message. I certainly raised my two adult sons exactly like that. The problem with your theory is that it is incredibly disempowering for women. I see this over and over and over. Everyone wants to cure "rape culture" for just one half of the equation. I don't think that works.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  Look at the allegations made against Harvey Weinstein and Louis CK. Many of these women wanted to say no, but didn't feel able to. Teaching young men to respect the boundaries of women is clearly important, but we also need to give young women the confidence and skills to assert their boundaries.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    It would also really help if people who aren't rapey bastards would step forward and open doors for women in terms of career instead of looking the other way, worrying that if they give a woman a leg up professionally there will be talk etc. That would do a lot to reduce the power that men like Harvey Weinstein wield. When that isn't done, women wind up with no one to negotiate with other than men who expect them to pay for their career advancement on their back. If anyone needs a little insight on the matter, I will suggest reading Salma Hayek's testimony about Harvey Weinstein: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/13/opinion/contributors/salma-hayek-harvey-weinstein.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/13/opinion/contr...
- falsedan 9y ago
  I think we should try it? Teaching daughters to be responsible for not getting sexually assaulyed implicitly communicates that men are not responsible. It can easily be interpreted as victim-blaming. Can you elaborate about how teaching sons not to sexually assault people is disempowering to women? I need help understanding female empowerment.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    Teaching daughters to be responsible for not getting sexually assaulted implicitly communicates that men are not responsible. It can easily be interpreted as victim-blaming. That view grows out of our current mental models. Those mental models are the crux of the problem. Protecting yourself from criminal intent in no way absolves the criminal of guilt. We don't draw that conclusion about any other crime. We don't tell people that thieves are not guilty of a crime if you failed to lock your house. We still encourage people to lock up to protect themselves from robbers while not thinking this somehow makes it your fault if the house gets broken into. If you run into a bear in the woods and you run from it, it will incite the bear's chase instinct and get you mauled. Teaching people best practices for how to reduce the odds of getting mauled if they run into a bear is not saying it is their fault. Refusing to teach them how to effectively handle it because girls shouldn't know such things means girls will either not go out into the world or they will routinely get mauled. Both of those outcomes are harmful to the lives of girls. Neither one gives girls full lives end par with the guys. There will always be predators. You will never achieve a perfect world. Not arming women to cope effectively with that reality essentially dooms them to sooner or later get preyed upon. It also actively teaches them to be prey. But that's a nuanced discussion you are probably not ready for and I am not super awake either, so not really up for anything that challenging.
    - falsedan 9y ago
      I get that you should be reasonably prepared for calamitous events. I don’t get the disempowering part, nor do I feel like it’s ok to just tell daughters (I know you didn’t say that, but likewise you haven’t addressed how prevention be best discussed with sons rather than avoidance with daughters). Perhaps they are related and I’m unaware of the connection. I don’t need a complete explanation; I’m happy to get myself educated from an appropriate source.
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        There's this: http://www.girlscouts.org/en/raising-girls/happy-and-healthy/happy/what-is-consent.html http://www.girlscouts.org/en/raising-girls/happy-and-healthy... You might find it useful to google for enthusiastic consent and sex positive resources as well. But you are the one coming up with this idea that it should be discussed with one gender or the other. I raised my sons this way. My original remarks were aimed at someone with a daughter, but there is no position here on my side to choose only one gender to educate. I would like this to be a new cultural standard across the board. If you want to stamp out rape culture, then we need a new culture. This includes everyone, not one gender or the other. The idea that it should be all on men to make sure sex goes well is rooted in current concepts of gender and heterosexual norms that actively train girls to be reactive, not proactive. It is rooted in a patriarchal framing of the world. This framing is inherently incompatible with female empowerment. What if I want to ask? What then? How does your concept of focusing on men help there? The other thing is that putting it on men amounts to assuming guilt. This never goes good places. There is a reason the US legal standard starts with an assumption of innocence. Warning men they need to not be rapey bastards begins with this assumption that there is a very big chance that they will do something terrible if they aren't berated from the get go. What if we treat both men and women like people who likely need to politely negotiate a mutually acceptable arrangement to get their needs met? That negotiation process requires substantive communication about the matter, but it isn't inherently predatory -- unless we make it so culturally, as we currently tend to do.
belorn 9y ago
With 25 serial rapists a year, how many sons are born each year (assuming all of them are male). Out of those 25, how many should be seen a clinical sane and would had their behavior changed if they just got the right advice as a child? Giving advice to "all boys" or "all girls" seems like one of those things that make people feel like they are doing something but which will have zero impact. Rape is one of those crimes which you could double the punishment for and still not see any change in the crime rate, as if it was done by less rational and rather sick minds.
chongli 9y ago
Perpetrators of all crimes are mostly men. Sexual assault perpetrated by men isn't out of proportion with theft or murder perpetrated by men.
- falsedan 9y ago
  I feel like your comment was trying to make a point and ended up stating some trivial facts. Could you elaborate on what your point is?
  - chongli 9y ago
    Perhaps it's too nihilistic a point to make at this juncture but it goes like this: How are we doing at reducing all instances of crime among men? If we can't get people to stop stealing, what hope do we have to convince them not to harass and assault? I just don't buy the standard argument "teach men not to rape". How do we do that? It's not a simple matter of saying "rape is bad, okay?" What we're dealing with here are tremendous forces of poverty, social atomization, and alienation. People who feel like they are on the outside looking in often have no problem ignoring the rules which really exist only to protect insiders anyway.
    - falsedan 9y ago
      I appreciate the reply, and I agree with your point.

DoreenMichele 9y ago

I would like to see all children get the message. I certainly raised my two adult sons exactly like that. The problem with your theory is that it is incredibly disempowering for women. I see this over and over and over. Everyone wants to cure "rape culture" for just one half of the equation. I don't think that works.

jdietrich 9y ago
Look at the allegations made against Harvey Weinstein and Louis CK. Many of these women wanted to say no, but didn't feel able to. Teaching young men to respect the boundaries of women is clearly important, but we also need to give young women the confidence and skills to assert their boundaries.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  It would also really help if people who aren't rapey bastards would step forward and open doors for women in terms of career instead of looking the other way, worrying that if they give a woman a leg up professionally there will be talk etc. That would do a lot to reduce the power that men like Harvey Weinstein wield. When that isn't done, women wind up with no one to negotiate with other than men who expect them to pay for their career advancement on their back. If anyone needs a little insight on the matter, I will suggest reading Salma Hayek's testimony about Harvey Weinstein: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/13/opinion/contributors/salma-hayek-harvey-weinstein.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/13/opinion/contr...
falsedan 9y ago
I think we should try it? Teaching daughters to be responsible for not getting sexually assaulyed implicitly communicates that men are not responsible. It can easily be interpreted as victim-blaming. Can you elaborate about how teaching sons not to sexually assault people is disempowering to women? I need help understanding female empowerment.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  Teaching daughters to be responsible for not getting sexually assaulted implicitly communicates that men are not responsible. It can easily be interpreted as victim-blaming. That view grows out of our current mental models. Those mental models are the crux of the problem. Protecting yourself from criminal intent in no way absolves the criminal of guilt. We don't draw that conclusion about any other crime. We don't tell people that thieves are not guilty of a crime if you failed to lock your house. We still encourage people to lock up to protect themselves from robbers while not thinking this somehow makes it your fault if the house gets broken into. If you run into a bear in the woods and you run from it, it will incite the bear's chase instinct and get you mauled. Teaching people best practices for how to reduce the odds of getting mauled if they run into a bear is not saying it is their fault. Refusing to teach them how to effectively handle it because girls shouldn't know such things means girls will either not go out into the world or they will routinely get mauled. Both of those outcomes are harmful to the lives of girls. Neither one gives girls full lives end par with the guys. There will always be predators. You will never achieve a perfect world. Not arming women to cope effectively with that reality essentially dooms them to sooner or later get preyed upon. It also actively teaches them to be prey. But that's a nuanced discussion you are probably not ready for and I am not super awake either, so not really up for anything that challenging.
  - falsedan 9y ago
    I get that you should be reasonably prepared for calamitous events. I don’t get the disempowering part, nor do I feel like it’s ok to just tell daughters (I know you didn’t say that, but likewise you haven’t addressed how prevention be best discussed with sons rather than avoidance with daughters). Perhaps they are related and I’m unaware of the connection. I don’t need a complete explanation; I’m happy to get myself educated from an appropriate source.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      There's this: http://www.girlscouts.org/en/raising-girls/happy-and-healthy/happy/what-is-consent.html http://www.girlscouts.org/en/raising-girls/happy-and-healthy... You might find it useful to google for enthusiastic consent and sex positive resources as well. But you are the one coming up with this idea that it should be discussed with one gender or the other. I raised my sons this way. My original remarks were aimed at someone with a daughter, but there is no position here on my side to choose only one gender to educate. I would like this to be a new cultural standard across the board. If you want to stamp out rape culture, then we need a new culture. This includes everyone, not one gender or the other. The idea that it should be all on men to make sure sex goes well is rooted in current concepts of gender and heterosexual norms that actively train girls to be reactive, not proactive. It is rooted in a patriarchal framing of the world. This framing is inherently incompatible with female empowerment. What if I want to ask? What then? How does your concept of focusing on men help there? The other thing is that putting it on men amounts to assuming guilt. This never goes good places. There is a reason the US legal standard starts with an assumption of innocence. Warning men they need to not be rapey bastards begins with this assumption that there is a very big chance that they will do something terrible if they aren't berated from the get go. What if we treat both men and women like people who likely need to politely negotiate a mutually acceptable arrangement to get their needs met? That negotiation process requires substantive communication about the matter, but it isn't inherently predatory -- unless we make it so culturally, as we currently tend to do.

belorn 9y ago

With 25 serial rapists a year, how many sons are born each year (assuming all of them are male). Out of those 25, how many should be seen a clinical sane and would had their behavior changed if they just got the right advice as a child? Giving advice to "all boys" or "all girls" seems like one of those things that make people feel like they are doing something but which will have zero impact. Rape is one of those crimes which you could double the punishment for and still not see any change in the crime rate, as if it was done by less rational and rather sick minds.

chongli 9y ago

Perpetrators of all crimes are mostly men. Sexual assault perpetrated by men isn't out of proportion with theft or murder perpetrated by men.

falsedan 9y ago
I feel like your comment was trying to make a point and ended up stating some trivial facts. Could you elaborate on what your point is?
- chongli 9y ago
  Perhaps it's too nihilistic a point to make at this juncture but it goes like this: How are we doing at reducing all instances of crime among men? If we can't get people to stop stealing, what hope do we have to convince them not to harass and assault? I just don't buy the standard argument "teach men not to rape". How do we do that? It's not a simple matter of saying "rape is bad, okay?" What we're dealing with here are tremendous forces of poverty, social atomization, and alienation. People who feel like they are on the outside looking in often have no problem ignoring the rules which really exist only to protect insiders anyway.
  - falsedan 9y ago
    I appreciate the reply, and I agree with your point.