6 ms·

Interesting article. 2-year Universities: Who made up the rule that we have to attend college for 4 years? Tertiary education does take a hell of a long time

by frossie 16y ago

Interesting article. 2-year Universities: Who made up the rule that we have to attend college for 4 years? Tertiary education does take a hell of a long time in the US. In my field, and in my generation, most UK students got their PhDs around 24-25 years of age; for the US students it was more like 27-28. Yes, if that is a real effect that would definitely be a problem. I can think of two factors that may be affecting this (I have no data): 1. The level of the student arriving at college. Yes you can probably get a professional degree in 2 years with no holiday breaks, provided your college doesn't have to teach you basics. 2. The fact that US colleges cost so much money potentially create a vicious cycle - you need a job to pay for college, which means you need enough spare hours in which to work, which means you have to space out your courses, which means you need more money etc etc. I would be certainly interested in views from US graduates as to why they feel it takes so long.

powrtoch 16y ago
I graduated from a major US university, and was going to reply to the 2-year idea anyway. I think, while many students do take jobs, most of them are happy (for now) just to amass loans and bank on (increasingly difficult to secure) future employment. For some the vicious cycle you propose might be an actual improvement. What I'd like to see is major Universities taking some of the ideas used in technical colleges: goal (job/career) oriented degrees, focus on actual experience, and for the love of all things sacred don't require (for example) CS majors to take dance appreciation and psychology. Students could shave a year or two off the time it takes them to graduate, and in doing so save themselves a lot of money. All without harming the "integrity" of the degree.
- jbooth 16y ago
  Well, you don't have to take dance appreciation or basket-weaving, but there is some value to liberal arts education in addition to vocational training.
  - barkingllama 16y ago
    I actually just created an account (pretty grueling process, I deserve some credit) to add my 2c: while focusing on professional skills and experience is a great thing for any curriculum, there is a value in "broadened horizons" that cannot be ignored. Specifically, I found that the networking (meeting those outside your potential field) and ability to see things from other perspectives was invaluable in my college experience. This breaks down the "siloing" effect that I see a lot of talented CS majors have problems with, an effect that is consequently ruining the business world. Taking off the blinders once in awhile is a good thing, regardless how seemingly useless that Drama 101 class is. It's all what you make of it...
  - kiba 16y ago
    This is a meme "I learn this, and you should learn it too!" There are alway value to an education, in anything. The question is if it is really worth learning about? Beside, people can learn to appreciate basket-weaving and dance appreciation in their own time. All they need to do is get rid of their TV and get a hobby. People don't need an overly expensive course to do that.
    - powrtoch 16y ago
      This was exactly my point. I think there really is value in learning the arts, and in learning other unrelated fields. I'm a big music enthusiast, and sociology was one of the best classes I took. But that doesn't change the fact that they are totally unnecessary to a programming career. If you're interested in them, you'll find your way to them, and you'll probably do it a lot cheaper.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    At NYU (where I used to work), a CS major requires 12 courses in CS and 32 courses total. The degree costs just short of $93,000. Do you really believe that a liberal arts education is worth $62,000 tuition + 2 years of lost wages (roughly another $140,000)? Particularly when, to borrow a phrase from Good Will Hunting, that liberal arts education is available to anyone for about $4.25 in late fees at the public library? http://cs.nyu.edu/webapps/content/academic/undergrad/majors http://cs.nyu.edu/webapps/content/academic/undergrad/majors http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CS5fT5za3JcJ:cas.nyu.edu/object/bulletin0810.ug.degreereq+nyu+degree+requirements+cas&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CS5fT5z... http://www.nyu.edu/bursar/tuition.fees/rates10/ugcas.html http://www.nyu.edu/bursar/tuition.fees/rates10/ugcas.html
gsmaverick 16y ago
I am currently going into my second year university in Canada, but we have a similar situation. 60%-75% of first year course material was largely useless and/or so basic I was surprised people didn't already know what was being taught. My four year degree could easily be a 3 year degree. I personally believe the best thing to pursue at university is a double major, because it cuts down on the "broadening your horizon" courses.
- muzz 16y ago
  Isn't there an equivalent of "Advanced Placement" in Canada? I.e. if you know the material of that freshman course, you can demonstrate it via an exam and be credited for the course.
sliverstorm 16y ago
I'd say it's a combination of your #1 - I 'relearned' a LOT of stuff in my first year- and the same phenomenon inside the university, between classes. It's terrible, and eats a lot of time. Essentially, your professors can't completely count on what professors of pre-req classes have taught you, and often have to review some things. This problem is compounded when the school admits community college students, whose classes inevitably never match up well to the University courses, so they wind up trailing. I've also been in classes where a class that was NOT a pre-req SHOULD have been a pre-req; for example, I took a class in sensors, and learned a lot about filters in the process. A huge component of using electronic sensors is filter design, so it was a very appropriate class to learn about filters in. After that, I took quite a few classes that used filters, but didn't require any pre-existing filter courses, so the professor would have to (briefly) teach filters again every time.
- ultrasaurus 16y ago
  It's a shame that there aren't more half-courses. Running both a course on filters and "a tiny course on the stuff about filters you need to you for other courses" (that could maybe be as little as a few optional classes + a test) shouldn't be beyond our organizational skills. Maybe what I want is more tests as pre-requisites rather than only full fledged courses (my alma mater had an English test that could be taken in lieu of one mandatory course)
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    Tests as pre-reqs are pretty useless IMHO. I 'tested into' the second level of calculus before I had taken pre-calc, but I would not have been able to pass the class, not a chance.
    - aero142 16y ago
      That only proves that the test was poor, not the theory.
evgen 16y ago
> in my generation, most UK students got their PhDs around 24-25 years of age; for the US students it was more like 27-28 The programs were not quite equivalent. US Ph.D. programs have traditionally included more courses and include a comprehensive examination in addition to a dissertation. A US Ph.D. candidate must demonstrate a broader understanding of the field and cannot just jump into thesis work upon starting their Ph.D. program.
- frossie 16y ago
  The programs were not quite equivalent. Sure, they may not be identical but they were teleologically equivalent. Newly minted PhDs from both countries proceeded to compete for the same jobs on a seemingly equal footing.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

by frossie 16y ago

powrtoch 16y ago

I graduated from a major US university, and was going to reply to the 2-year idea anyway. I think, while many students do take jobs, most of them are happy (for now) just to amass loans and bank on (increasingly difficult to secure) future employment. For some the vicious cycle you propose might be an actual improvement. What I'd like to see is major Universities taking some of the ideas used in technical colleges: goal (job/career) oriented degrees, focus on actual experience, and for the love of all things sacred don't require (for example) CS majors to take dance appreciation and psychology. Students could shave a year or two off the time it takes them to graduate, and in doing so save themselves a lot of money. All without harming the "integrity" of the degree.

jbooth 16y ago
Well, you don't have to take dance appreciation or basket-weaving, but there is some value to liberal arts education in addition to vocational training.
- barkingllama 16y ago
  I actually just created an account (pretty grueling process, I deserve some credit) to add my 2c: while focusing on professional skills and experience is a great thing for any curriculum, there is a value in "broadened horizons" that cannot be ignored. Specifically, I found that the networking (meeting those outside your potential field) and ability to see things from other perspectives was invaluable in my college experience. This breaks down the "siloing" effect that I see a lot of talented CS majors have problems with, an effect that is consequently ruining the business world. Taking off the blinders once in awhile is a good thing, regardless how seemingly useless that Drama 101 class is. It's all what you make of it...
- kiba 16y ago
  This is a meme "I learn this, and you should learn it too!" There are alway value to an education, in anything. The question is if it is really worth learning about? Beside, people can learn to appreciate basket-weaving and dance appreciation in their own time. All they need to do is get rid of their TV and get a hobby. People don't need an overly expensive course to do that.
  - powrtoch 16y ago
    This was exactly my point. I think there really is value in learning the arts, and in learning other unrelated fields. I'm a big music enthusiast, and sociology was one of the best classes I took. But that doesn't change the fact that they are totally unnecessary to a programming career. If you're interested in them, you'll find your way to them, and you'll probably do it a lot cheaper.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  At NYU (where I used to work), a CS major requires 12 courses in CS and 32 courses total. The degree costs just short of $93,000. Do you really believe that a liberal arts education is worth $62,000 tuition + 2 years of lost wages (roughly another $140,000)? Particularly when, to borrow a phrase from Good Will Hunting, that liberal arts education is available to anyone for about $4.25 in late fees at the public library? http://cs.nyu.edu/webapps/content/academic/undergrad/majors http://cs.nyu.edu/webapps/content/academic/undergrad/majors http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CS5fT5za3JcJ:cas.nyu.edu/object/bulletin0810.ug.degreereq+nyu+degree+requirements+cas&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CS5fT5z... http://www.nyu.edu/bursar/tuition.fees/rates10/ugcas.html http://www.nyu.edu/bursar/tuition.fees/rates10/ugcas.html

gsmaverick 16y ago

I am currently going into my second year university in Canada, but we have a similar situation. 60%-75% of first year course material was largely useless and/or so basic I was surprised people didn't already know what was being taught. My four year degree could easily be a 3 year degree. I personally believe the best thing to pursue at university is a double major, because it cuts down on the "broadening your horizon" courses.

muzz 16y ago
Isn't there an equivalent of "Advanced Placement" in Canada? I.e. if you know the material of that freshman course, you can demonstrate it via an exam and be credited for the course.

sliverstorm 16y ago

I'd say it's a combination of your #1 - I 'relearned' a LOT of stuff in my first year- and the same phenomenon inside the university, between classes. It's terrible, and eats a lot of time. Essentially, your professors can't completely count on what professors of pre-req classes have taught you, and often have to review some things. This problem is compounded when the school admits community college students, whose classes inevitably never match up well to the University courses, so they wind up trailing. I've also been in classes where a class that was NOT a pre-req SHOULD have been a pre-req; for example, I took a class in sensors, and learned a lot about filters in the process. A huge component of using electronic sensors is filter design, so it was a very appropriate class to learn about filters in. After that, I took quite a few classes that used filters, but didn't require any pre-existing filter courses, so the professor would have to (briefly) teach filters again every time.

ultrasaurus 16y ago
It's a shame that there aren't more half-courses. Running both a course on filters and "a tiny course on the stuff about filters you need to you for other courses" (that could maybe be as little as a few optional classes + a test) shouldn't be beyond our organizational skills. Maybe what I want is more tests as pre-requisites rather than only full fledged courses (my alma mater had an English test that could be taken in lieu of one mandatory course)
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  Tests as pre-reqs are pretty useless IMHO. I 'tested into' the second level of calculus before I had taken pre-calc, but I would not have been able to pass the class, not a chance.
  - aero142 16y ago
    That only proves that the test was poor, not the theory.

evgen 16y ago

> in my generation, most UK students got their PhDs around 24-25 years of age; for the US students it was more like 27-28 The programs were not quite equivalent. US Ph.D. programs have traditionally included more courses and include a comprehensive examination in addition to a dissertation. A US Ph.D. candidate must demonstrate a broader understanding of the field and cannot just jump into thesis work upon starting their Ph.D. program.

frossie 16y ago
The programs were not quite equivalent. Sure, they may not be identical but they were teleologically equivalent. Newly minted PhDs from both countries proceeded to compete for the same jobs on a seemingly equal footing.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]