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Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

code_duck 9y ago
I’m bothered by the need to carry cash just for tips, kind of like how quarters function solely as special magic tokens for parking meters. Starbucks, for instance, does not have tipping activated on their electronic check out… Who knows why? I tip with every coffee I get, except when I’m unable to because of payment technology.
- cardiffspaceman 9y ago
  If you pay Starbucks with their stored-value card linked to their phone app you can tip with it. If you enable notifications from the app you can get a reminder to enter the app and check off the tip amount. You also have 2 hours to change the tip.
taoistextremist 9y ago
A lot of these jobs that they're bemoaning the loss of tips for, also aren't all that necessary. If establishments want to give off the impression they're upper class, they ought to pay these "professions" considerably more considering they obviously have the money. Otherwise, opening doors and operating elevators are things I'm content to do on my own.
- jedberg 9y ago
  The ostensible purpose of the doorman is to add a layer of security. Someone who is always there watching, looking for people who don't belong, receiving packages and securing them, etc. They are basically a crime deterrent. So is the elevator operator to an extent (although that one is really more just for impression of being fancy).
  - taoistextremist 9y ago
    >Someone who is always there watching, looking for people who don't belong, receiving packages and securing them, etc. Isn't that the job of a receptionist? They should definitely be getting paid more if these are all their responsibility.
    - jedberg 9y ago
      Well it used to be that if they grabbed a package for you, you would tip them, so the people who got more packages "paid more" for the service.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Isn't that the job of a receptionist? Not typically, though a receptionist in a place without a doorman or might do some or all of them.
  - nkrisc 9y ago
    >The ostensible purpose of the doorman is to add a layer of security. Someone who is always there watching, looking for people who don't belong, receiving packages and securing them, etc. They are basically a crime deterrent. Sounds like a pretty important job. I imagine a building would want to compensate such a person pretty well in order to help keep the building secure and functioning smoothly. As they say, you get what you pay for.
    - astura 9y ago
      Door keepers in NYC are actually unionized: http://www.seiu32bj.org/who-we-are/ http://www.seiu32bj.org/who-we-are/
      - notyourday 9y ago
        And that's insanity.
        9y ago
betterunix2 9y ago
Maybe we should not have tips? There is no actual need or advantage to giving people tips, and there are plenty of countries where tipping is not common (including some where cash is still favored over electronic payments). Why not just pay people a fair wage that they can live on?
- Sangermaine 9y ago
  Because that would cost the companies more and they're happy to get away with paying less. It's really not a mystery.
  - jhpankow 9y ago
    I wish there was a list of Bay Area restaurants that don't require tipping. I discovered one last Friday and look forward to returning for the good food, service, and fair wages.
    - Moru 9y ago
      There are an app for everything: http://www.schystavillkor.se/ http://www.schystavillkor.se/ Sadly this one only covers Sweden but you can look up what restaurants have signed the contract with the union. This guarantees fair wages and working conditions. The law in Sweden is pretty free so there exists unions that are supposed to talk to the companies and get an agreement on what is fair both ways.
    - drdeadringer 9y ago
      Would you mind sharing the name of the restaurant?
      - jhpankow 9y ago
        http://www.yayoi-us.com/california-location.html http://www.yayoi-us.com/california-location.html
        9y ago
45h34jh53k4j 9y ago
Its time to pay people a living wage, and stop the tipping culture. I hate carrying cash, and It bothers me that I have to carry $1 bills for the tipping extortion. Im resentful that I have to pay for things as well as bribe the workers. Its disgusting.
- BrainInAJar 9y ago
  I too believe the `$15 and a union` slogan. Companies aren't going to do it out of the good of their hearts
- racl101 9y ago
  Agreed. I only want to pay for the advertised price. I hate these unwritten rules. People should just do their job because they're being compensated fairly. Maybe this will be one good thing about robots.
- amyjess 9y ago
  > I hate carrying cash, and It bothers me that I have to carry $1 bills for the tipping extortion. I don't carry cash either, but I just tip with a credit card. If you don't accept tips with card, you don't get tipped. 90% of the time, there's a tip line on the credit card receipt. But I do agree that we need to increase wages and kill tipping culture.
  - s0rce 9y ago
    That doesn't help the people that this article is about, like doormen.
empath75 9y ago
I've noticed a big drop in panhandlers in cities, recently. Nobody even has cash any more. I wonder what they've been doing instead?
- jedberg 9y ago
  I hope it's because services for them have picked up, funded by both public money and private (digital) donations. But I suspect the real answer is something closer to "starving and dying". :(
  - acdanger 9y ago
    I'm aware of donations through apps like GoFundMe, but does there exist any services for making digital donations to homeless people I might encounter on the street? I've thought about how the lack of cash is affecting these people, quite a lot but haven't encountered any solutions.
    - jpindar 9y ago
      Gift cards? Coffee shops and such have low denomination ones.
      - jedberg 9y ago
        The problem with that is a lot of those stores will kick the homeless person out. We used to buy meals for homeless people on the street when we were getting fast food in college. Oftentimes they were afraid to come into the McDonalds with us, even though we were taking them in, because they had been kicked out in the past. There's no way they would have gone in to use a gift card.
- yardie 9y ago
  Probably been chased to other locations. A lot of municipalities have made pan handling a nuisance crime.
  - 9y ago
jedberg 9y ago
I've had this problem from the other side. I haven't been to the bank to withdraw cash in years. Usually I got all the cash I needed by splitting bills with friends, where I paid on the card and got cash, or Chinese New Year money. But since having kids (and the invention of Venmo and its ilk), we've stopped going out with friends and splitting checks and when we do it's all digital, and now I have to give the New Year money instead of get it. We have a house cleaner every couple of weeks that I like to tip, and lately it's been a struggle to find cash lying around for the tip. Also when I get a haircut they give a big discount for cash, and that's been a struggle too. Like the girl in the article, I just forget to go to the cash machine, it's not a priority until the time comes. I may have to visit the ATM for the first time in a few years this holiday season to give holiday tips.
- jrowley 9y ago
  I just make a habit of having a couple of hundred in cash at home and periodically pull out a $20 or $40 a week as needed and refill before it gets low. Just always try to have a couple of hundred around.
  - jedberg 9y ago
    We used to do that too, but that couple hundred came from the meal splitting and New Year money. :) Now I actually have to remember to stop a bank when they're open, because the ATM only gives 20s, and I need 5s and 10s, but since no one uses cash I have no where to break the 20s anymore.
    - Domenic_S 9y ago
      A trick I learned in college where the bank was on the other side of town: use your Debit card with pin at the grocery store and get cash back.
      - jedberg 9y ago
        Hmmm, not a bad idea. But they only give like $20 back, right?
raverbashing 9y ago
Most of the places where I paid with card and added a tip they checked the tip value, took it out of the register and added it to the tip jar
omg_ketchup 9y ago
Is it really worth tipping someone to open a door or press a button in an elevator? I never understood the need for this position, let alone why anyone would ever tip them.
- opencl 9y ago
  There are plenty of older buildings with manual elevators (as in direct control of the motor), and they're a bit tricky to line up with the platform accurately. I regularly visit two buildings with such elevators and only one has an operator on staff. If people are being paid to 'operate' modern automatic elevators it is indeed quite silly though.
unethical_ban 9y ago
When I was a kid, we tipped the postal worker and several other "service workers" that didn't need it the way food service does. It's just a nice eway of saying "thank you for your work". The purely logical among you will say "That's what a wage is for" but that's not the point. Kind of like how I don't get Christmas gift because I can't afford socks.
- yardie 9y ago
  And that is fine as long as there is no obligation. But most American restaurants if you don’t tip to the formula they treat you like you’re robbbng them.
  - exhilaration 9y ago
    Things are different in America - restaurants get a special exemption under labor law [1] that allows them to pay wait staff about 25% of the minimum wage required for all other professions. The social understanding is that patrons are obligated to make up the difference via tips - you have to pay to use their services. The system sucks but that's how it is, if you don't want to tip then you can always eat at McDonalds or other establishments without wait staff. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...
    - mjevans 9y ago
      Sad but true; and something that should be fixed.
    - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
      > The system sucks but that's how it is, if you don't want to tip then you can always eat at McDonalds or other establishments without wait staff. Or you can simply eat at that establishment and not leave a tip.
      - unethical_ban 9y ago
Glyptodon 9y ago
I'm reminded of a family friend telling me a story about how last year they were on day trip somewhere and a power outage happened to occur in whatever one-shop town out in the boondocks they were visiting and only one old Grandma had cash to pay for a drink or snack while the power was out, everyone else basically had to starve through lunch waiting for the power to come back on.
- Simon_says 9y ago
  That's on the business. I used to be a cashier, and during power outages, we had an old carbon copier that we could use to copy credit cards and note the amount, and then enter it in manually later. You lose the instant approve/deny, but we'd also copy ids.
  - lazerpants 9y ago
    How did you copy licenses if the power was out?
    - omg_ketchup 9y ago
      > we had an old carbon copier that we could use You know, the kind where you slide the thing across and you don't have to plug it in?
      - jessaustin 9y ago
        That takes an impression from a credit card (although I see more and more that don't have raised lettering) but not from an ID.
        Domenic_S 9y ago
        The impression isn't strictly necessary -- it's for convenience and, if needed, solid proof the physical card was there. At most you write down the license number on the carbon paper. If you lose the machine you can hand-write the card number just as easily. Think about how an online transaction works -- punch in the number, no ID needed. Believe it or not that didn't start online ;) Source: took "offline" payments when a retail store's power went down many many years ago.
millzlane 9y ago
There is no way we will rid this society of tips. People will need to be paid more to compensate. And not many capitalist want to to give more and earn less. I was just in New York yesterday. Upon seeing the doormen dressed like the guy in Home Alone, I realized that there are people who still want you dressed in a monkey suit for no logical reason. I doubt they're willing to pay them more. I'm certain someone can make the doorman a device that will allow them to easily receive tips via chip card. I've seen boy scouts who use stripe. On a side note do we even need door men?
- walshemj 9y ago
  A concierge at a 5* hotel can make bank - need a source for those Hamilton tickets for example
- lazerpants 9y ago
  >On a side note do we even need door men? At my buddy's old place in Brooklyn the security door for the building broke. It had been broken for about 24 hours before my friend discovered a prostitute giving a john a BJ in the stairwell. Doormen keep prostitutes from giving BJs in your stairwell, among other things.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    >Doormen keep prostitutes from giving BJs in your stairwell, among other things. I don't mind having to step over a dude getting a blowie in the stairwell if it saves the Chinese food delivery guy from having to stand in the cold and saves me from having to put on a jacket to go get my Chinese food. Stuff like prostitution and drug dealers would only be 10% of the problem they are if people would stop being bothered by them out of habit.
arafa 9y ago
Tipping is often associated with both corruption and racism: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/05/study-countries-with-more-tipping-are-more-corrupt/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/05/study... http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=articles http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic... I have actually almost entirely stopped using Uber after they made tipping part of the app. I've worked in a place with tipping, and my experience directly corroborates those links.
- Simon_says 9y ago
  Tipping is part of Uber now? That was what I liked about it! Did they at least lower the base rate to compensate?
  - 45h34jh53k4j 9y ago
    its more expensive than ever. i refuse to tip via uber (of course I get downvoted by the driver due to tip extortion). Screw uber!
    - libertyEQ 9y ago
      We honestly need less comments on HN that end with, "Screw X!"
      - jessaustin 9y ago
        [downvoted for excessive irony]
        libertyEQ 9y ago
        Saying we need less comments of some sort does not equate to saying "screw them!" I can't DV, so you all can create an aggressive environment on HN if you want, but it won't help you IRL if you say this. If you want to create a toxic environment for discussion, that is up to dang.
greggarious 9y ago
Do people not carry cash? Maybe the types who have an apartment with a doorman in Manhattan don't. But I (a "millenial") often go to bars and restaurants that are cash only. Eventually, I found it was easier keep budget my "entertainment" in cash. Visually being able to see how much I have, how much I'm taking out helps. Being able to see that amount grow if I'm frugal one month feels good too. I have friends who claim they get value from "points". But unless you're working towards a spending minimum for a sign up bonus, I've found the amount you make (2-5%) from using your credit card is less than the savings from thinking critically about which cash purchases to make.
- lazerpants 9y ago
  Anecdotally, New Yorkers (of all varieties) carry some cash most of the time. There are just too many places that do not accept cards in NYC for people to go cashless. My friends in Denver and LA almost never seem to have cash, and are always surprised that it is a problem when they visit NYC.
  - Androider 9y ago
    New Yorker here, I can't really think of any place that doesn't take cards. Some bodegas have minimums, e.g. $5 or $10, but even those are rare and I typically pay for everything by card and carry no cash.
    - lazerpants 9y ago
      Off the top of my head I can think of: JG Melon (1 Michelin Star), Grimaldis, Tile Bar, McSorleys, Alta, Lil Frankies, Peter Luger (1 Michelin Star), Artichoke Basilles. Plus at least 2 more restaurants in my neighborhood that I like and are somewhat popular with tourists. And my barber. Really, it just comes down to the fact that I never know if I'll end up somewhere that doesn't take cards, so I prefer to have it. The bodegas where I work are also serious sticklers for the $10 credit card minimums.
    - StanislavPetrov 9y ago
      Obviously not a fan of the dirty water hot dog.
Yetanfou 9y ago
The 'cashless society' is starting to show another dark side here in Sweden in that several banks have started to close accounts for organisations [1] which don't "agree to the bank's ethical foundation" (the Swedish word is "Värdegrund" [2]). While there still are banks willing to take these organisations as customers this is a development in the wrong direction. It does not matter whether you agree with the "ethical foundation" these "banned" organisations have, the important fact is that they operate within the bounds of the law of the land. This used to be the deciding factor to separate 'good' from 'bad', legal from illegal, allowed from disallowed. Cash does not care about politics, it is - by law - as valid for a communist as it is for a priest or a libertarian. This currently does not go for the services provided by banks to enable transactions in a cashless society as can be seen by the Swedish example; there is no compulsion for those banks to take up anyone or any organisation as a customer. In a polarised society like Sweden where the pressure to abide by the "ethical foundation" is very strong this leads to extra-judicial sentences on those who do not abide by or agree to those ethical foundations. Had those organisations been shunned because of their stance on, say, religion, those banks would be accused of discrimination. Discrimination based on political orientation however is currently not protected by law. If the "cashless society" is to succeed this probably will have to change, doing anything else will only lead to even more segregation where "left-wing" financial institutions refuse to do business with "right-wing" customers. In short, in a land ruled by law it is the law which should be the boundary between what is allowed and disallowed. As long as an individual or an organisations abides by the law their ideological standpoint should be irrelevant to financial service companies. [1] http://www.friatider.se/nordea-st-nger-ner-nationalisters-konton-kan-ej-motivera-varf-r-och-l-gger-p-luren http://www.friatider.se/nordea-st-nger-ner-nationalisters-ko... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4rdegrund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4rdegrund
- fernandopj 9y ago
  If only there was a way for society to go cashless, but not to rely on central authorities to decide who has money and who doesn't... Oh, wait. Joke aside, you just described why blockchain ideologists hope the future will be a global, decentralized system. So no one can unilaterally deny access to your money.
perseusprime11 9y ago
Maybe we should have an app that allows us to give tips easily? I am still dreaming of a true mobile wallet, maybe Apple Pay
atonse 9y ago
This is the kind of reason I hate tipping culture: I never knew that you were supposed to tip the Elevator Man. Now, I've only encountered an elevator man once in my life in the US. But still. It never occurred to me that he should be tipped. And that's my main problem, the ambiguity. There's no consistency in who should get tipped and how much is a decent amount. And that kind of opaqueness always hurts everyone involved but a few lucky ones.
- acchow 9y ago
  And the guy in the bathroom handing out paper towels. What if my wallet is in my jacket at my table?
unixhero 9y ago
Yeah tipping sucks. In Northern Europe it's it something we do. Unless we want to.
EADGBE 9y ago
A lot of the arguments for getting away from tips are for servers. There's already a solution in place to handle cashless tips for them. They aren't responsible for the transaction fee a lot of processors pass onto the gig economy. It works relatively well, even in the event of loss of internet or power. The laws of averages work out for an average server, I worked for 5 years in the restaurant industry and two years of that was 100% waiting tables. I averaged $24-$26K between those two years in two different states and 4 different cities. Both of those states are at the US minimum wage of $2.13/hr (for restaurant waiters). I worked about 30-40 hours a week. We're talking ~$12-$13/hr average. It's was definitely much better than any minimum wage position I could have had. Anecdotally, the servers I knew who complained most about the wage were also the least responsible ones with their money. We worked at a restaurant that gave you your tips at the end of the night and to many peers, the urge to spend that cold hard cash was too strong. Those responsible but just underpaid were underpaid either way; they still could usually keep it together at $12-$13/hr, still a good wage for someone relatively just getting started career-wise. Whatever wage you made from the $2.13/hr usually just covered your taxes. Most of my deposited paychecks were less than $10 every other week. I know that this isn't what other countries do, but it does work and keeps most families and individuals out of the poverty level. The requirements for work are relatively undemanding and most people who want a job serving get a job serving.

I’m bothered by the need to carry cash just for tips, kind of like how quarters function solely as special magic tokens for parking meters. Starbucks, for instance, does not have tipping activated on their electronic check out… Who knows why? I tip with every coffee I get, except when I’m unable to because of payment technology.

cardiffspaceman 9y ago
If you pay Starbucks with their stored-value card linked to their phone app you can tip with it. If you enable notifications from the app you can get a reminder to enter the app and check off the tip amount. You also have 2 hours to change the tip.

taoistextremist 9y ago

A lot of these jobs that they're bemoaning the loss of tips for, also aren't all that necessary. If establishments want to give off the impression they're upper class, they ought to pay these "professions" considerably more considering they obviously have the money. Otherwise, opening doors and operating elevators are things I'm content to do on my own.

jedberg 9y ago
The ostensible purpose of the doorman is to add a layer of security. Someone who is always there watching, looking for people who don't belong, receiving packages and securing them, etc. They are basically a crime deterrent. So is the elevator operator to an extent (although that one is really more just for impression of being fancy).
- taoistextremist 9y ago
  >Someone who is always there watching, looking for people who don't belong, receiving packages and securing them, etc. Isn't that the job of a receptionist? They should definitely be getting paid more if these are all their responsibility.
  - jedberg 9y ago
    Well it used to be that if they grabbed a package for you, you would tip them, so the people who got more packages "paid more" for the service.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Isn't that the job of a receptionist? Not typically, though a receptionist in a place without a doorman or might do some or all of them.
- nkrisc 9y ago
  >The ostensible purpose of the doorman is to add a layer of security. Someone who is always there watching, looking for people who don't belong, receiving packages and securing them, etc. They are basically a crime deterrent. Sounds like a pretty important job. I imagine a building would want to compensate such a person pretty well in order to help keep the building secure and functioning smoothly. As they say, you get what you pay for.
  - astura 9y ago
    Door keepers in NYC are actually unionized: http://www.seiu32bj.org/who-we-are/ http://www.seiu32bj.org/who-we-are/
    - notyourday 9y ago
      And that's insanity.
      - 9y ago

betterunix2 9y ago

Maybe we should not have tips? There is no actual need or advantage to giving people tips, and there are plenty of countries where tipping is not common (including some where cash is still favored over electronic payments). Why not just pay people a fair wage that they can live on?

Sangermaine 9y ago
Because that would cost the companies more and they're happy to get away with paying less. It's really not a mystery.
- jhpankow 9y ago
  I wish there was a list of Bay Area restaurants that don't require tipping. I discovered one last Friday and look forward to returning for the good food, service, and fair wages.
  - Moru 9y ago
    There are an app for everything: http://www.schystavillkor.se/ http://www.schystavillkor.se/ Sadly this one only covers Sweden but you can look up what restaurants have signed the contract with the union. This guarantees fair wages and working conditions. The law in Sweden is pretty free so there exists unions that are supposed to talk to the companies and get an agreement on what is fair both ways.
  - drdeadringer 9y ago
    Would you mind sharing the name of the restaurant?
    - jhpankow 9y ago
      http://www.yayoi-us.com/california-location.html http://www.yayoi-us.com/california-location.html
      - 9y ago

45h34jh53k4j 9y ago

Its time to pay people a living wage, and stop the tipping culture. I hate carrying cash, and It bothers me that I have to carry $1 bills for the tipping extortion. Im resentful that I have to pay for things as well as bribe the workers. Its disgusting.

BrainInAJar 9y ago
I too believe the `$15 and a union` slogan. Companies aren't going to do it out of the good of their hearts
racl101 9y ago
Agreed. I only want to pay for the advertised price. I hate these unwritten rules. People should just do their job because they're being compensated fairly. Maybe this will be one good thing about robots.
amyjess 9y ago
> I hate carrying cash, and It bothers me that I have to carry $1 bills for the tipping extortion. I don't carry cash either, but I just tip with a credit card. If you don't accept tips with card, you don't get tipped. 90% of the time, there's a tip line on the credit card receipt. But I do agree that we need to increase wages and kill tipping culture.
- s0rce 9y ago
  That doesn't help the people that this article is about, like doormen.

empath75 9y ago

I've noticed a big drop in panhandlers in cities, recently. Nobody even has cash any more. I wonder what they've been doing instead?

jedberg 9y ago
I hope it's because services for them have picked up, funded by both public money and private (digital) donations. But I suspect the real answer is something closer to "starving and dying". :(
- acdanger 9y ago
  I'm aware of donations through apps like GoFundMe, but does there exist any services for making digital donations to homeless people I might encounter on the street? I've thought about how the lack of cash is affecting these people, quite a lot but haven't encountered any solutions.
  - jpindar 9y ago
    Gift cards? Coffee shops and such have low denomination ones.
    - jedberg 9y ago
      The problem with that is a lot of those stores will kick the homeless person out. We used to buy meals for homeless people on the street when we were getting fast food in college. Oftentimes they were afraid to come into the McDonalds with us, even though we were taking them in, because they had been kicked out in the past. There's no way they would have gone in to use a gift card.
yardie 9y ago
Probably been chased to other locations. A lot of municipalities have made pan handling a nuisance crime.
- 9y ago

jedberg 9y ago

I've had this problem from the other side. I haven't been to the bank to withdraw cash in years. Usually I got all the cash I needed by splitting bills with friends, where I paid on the card and got cash, or Chinese New Year money. But since having kids (and the invention of Venmo and its ilk), we've stopped going out with friends and splitting checks and when we do it's all digital, and now I have to give the New Year money instead of get it. We have a house cleaner every couple of weeks that I like to tip, and lately it's been a struggle to find cash lying around for the tip. Also when I get a haircut they give a big discount for cash, and that's been a struggle too. Like the girl in the article, I just forget to go to the cash machine, it's not a priority until the time comes. I may have to visit the ATM for the first time in a few years this holiday season to give holiday tips.

jrowley 9y ago
I just make a habit of having a couple of hundred in cash at home and periodically pull out a $20 or $40 a week as needed and refill before it gets low. Just always try to have a couple of hundred around.
- jedberg 9y ago
  We used to do that too, but that couple hundred came from the meal splitting and New Year money. :) Now I actually have to remember to stop a bank when they're open, because the ATM only gives 20s, and I need 5s and 10s, but since no one uses cash I have no where to break the 20s anymore.
  - Domenic_S 9y ago
    A trick I learned in college where the bank was on the other side of town: use your Debit card with pin at the grocery store and get cash back.
    - jedberg 9y ago
      Hmmm, not a bad idea. But they only give like $20 back, right?

raverbashing 9y ago

Most of the places where I paid with card and added a tip they checked the tip value, took it out of the register and added it to the tip jar

omg_ketchup 9y ago

Is it really worth tipping someone to open a door or press a button in an elevator? I never understood the need for this position, let alone why anyone would ever tip them.

opencl 9y ago
There are plenty of older buildings with manual elevators (as in direct control of the motor), and they're a bit tricky to line up with the platform accurately. I regularly visit two buildings with such elevators and only one has an operator on staff. If people are being paid to 'operate' modern automatic elevators it is indeed quite silly though.

unethical_ban 9y ago

When I was a kid, we tipped the postal worker and several other "service workers" that didn't need it the way food service does. It's just a nice eway of saying "thank you for your work". The purely logical among you will say "That's what a wage is for" but that's not the point. Kind of like how I don't get Christmas gift because I can't afford socks.

yardie 9y ago
And that is fine as long as there is no obligation. But most American restaurants if you don’t tip to the formula they treat you like you’re robbbng them.
- exhilaration 9y ago
  Things are different in America - restaurants get a special exemption under labor law [1] that allows them to pay wait staff about 25% of the minimum wage required for all other professions. The social understanding is that patrons are obligated to make up the difference via tips - you have to pay to use their services. The system sucks but that's how it is, if you don't want to tip then you can always eat at McDonalds or other establishments without wait staff. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...
  - mjevans 9y ago
    Sad but true; and something that should be fixed.
  - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
    > The system sucks but that's how it is, if you don't want to tip then you can always eat at McDonalds or other establishments without wait staff. Or you can simply eat at that establishment and not leave a tip.
    - unethical_ban 9y ago

Glyptodon 9y ago

I'm reminded of a family friend telling me a story about how last year they were on day trip somewhere and a power outage happened to occur in whatever one-shop town out in the boondocks they were visiting and only one old Grandma had cash to pay for a drink or snack while the power was out, everyone else basically had to starve through lunch waiting for the power to come back on.

Simon_says 9y ago
That's on the business. I used to be a cashier, and during power outages, we had an old carbon copier that we could use to copy credit cards and note the amount, and then enter it in manually later. You lose the instant approve/deny, but we'd also copy ids.
- lazerpants 9y ago
  How did you copy licenses if the power was out?
  - omg_ketchup 9y ago
    > we had an old carbon copier that we could use You know, the kind where you slide the thing across and you don't have to plug it in?
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      That takes an impression from a credit card (although I see more and more that don't have raised lettering) but not from an ID.
      - Domenic_S 9y ago
        The impression isn't strictly necessary -- it's for convenience and, if needed, solid proof the physical card was there. At most you write down the license number on the carbon paper. If you lose the machine you can hand-write the card number just as easily. Think about how an online transaction works -- punch in the number, no ID needed. Believe it or not that didn't start online ;) Source: took "offline" payments when a retail store's power went down many many years ago.

millzlane 9y ago

There is no way we will rid this society of tips. People will need to be paid more to compensate. And not many capitalist want to to give more and earn less. I was just in New York yesterday. Upon seeing the doormen dressed like the guy in Home Alone, I realized that there are people who still want you dressed in a monkey suit for no logical reason. I doubt they're willing to pay them more. I'm certain someone can make the doorman a device that will allow them to easily receive tips via chip card. I've seen boy scouts who use stripe. On a side note do we even need door men?

walshemj 9y ago
A concierge at a 5* hotel can make bank - need a source for those Hamilton tickets for example
lazerpants 9y ago
>On a side note do we even need door men? At my buddy's old place in Brooklyn the security door for the building broke. It had been broken for about 24 hours before my friend discovered a prostitute giving a john a BJ in the stairwell. Doormen keep prostitutes from giving BJs in your stairwell, among other things.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  >Doormen keep prostitutes from giving BJs in your stairwell, among other things. I don't mind having to step over a dude getting a blowie in the stairwell if it saves the Chinese food delivery guy from having to stand in the cold and saves me from having to put on a jacket to go get my Chinese food. Stuff like prostitution and drug dealers would only be 10% of the problem they are if people would stop being bothered by them out of habit.

arafa 9y ago

Tipping is often associated with both corruption and racism: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/05/study-countries-with-more-tipping-are-more-corrupt/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/05/study... http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=articles http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic... I have actually almost entirely stopped using Uber after they made tipping part of the app. I've worked in a place with tipping, and my experience directly corroborates those links.

Simon_says 9y ago
Tipping is part of Uber now? That was what I liked about it! Did they at least lower the base rate to compensate?
- 45h34jh53k4j 9y ago
  its more expensive than ever. i refuse to tip via uber (of course I get downvoted by the driver due to tip extortion). Screw uber!
  - libertyEQ 9y ago
    We honestly need less comments on HN that end with, "Screw X!"
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      [downvoted for excessive irony]
      - libertyEQ 9y ago
        Saying we need less comments of some sort does not equate to saying "screw them!" I can't DV, so you all can create an aggressive environment on HN if you want, but it won't help you IRL if you say this. If you want to create a toxic environment for discussion, that is up to dang.

greggarious 9y ago

Do people not carry cash? Maybe the types who have an apartment with a doorman in Manhattan don't. But I (a "millenial") often go to bars and restaurants that are cash only. Eventually, I found it was easier keep budget my "entertainment" in cash. Visually being able to see how much I have, how much I'm taking out helps. Being able to see that amount grow if I'm frugal one month feels good too. I have friends who claim they get value from "points". But unless you're working towards a spending minimum for a sign up bonus, I've found the amount you make (2-5%) from using your credit card is less than the savings from thinking critically about which cash purchases to make.

lazerpants 9y ago
Anecdotally, New Yorkers (of all varieties) carry some cash most of the time. There are just too many places that do not accept cards in NYC for people to go cashless. My friends in Denver and LA almost never seem to have cash, and are always surprised that it is a problem when they visit NYC.
- Androider 9y ago
  New Yorker here, I can't really think of any place that doesn't take cards. Some bodegas have minimums, e.g. $5 or $10, but even those are rare and I typically pay for everything by card and carry no cash.
  - lazerpants 9y ago
    Off the top of my head I can think of: JG Melon (1 Michelin Star), Grimaldis, Tile Bar, McSorleys, Alta, Lil Frankies, Peter Luger (1 Michelin Star), Artichoke Basilles. Plus at least 2 more restaurants in my neighborhood that I like and are somewhat popular with tourists. And my barber. Really, it just comes down to the fact that I never know if I'll end up somewhere that doesn't take cards, so I prefer to have it. The bodegas where I work are also serious sticklers for the $10 credit card minimums.
  - StanislavPetrov 9y ago
    Obviously not a fan of the dirty water hot dog.

Yetanfou 9y ago

The 'cashless society' is starting to show another dark side here in Sweden in that several banks have started to close accounts for organisations [1] which don't "agree to the bank's ethical foundation" (the Swedish word is "Värdegrund" [2]). While there still are banks willing to take these organisations as customers this is a development in the wrong direction. It does not matter whether you agree with the "ethical foundation" these "banned" organisations have, the important fact is that they operate within the bounds of the law of the land. This used to be the deciding factor to separate 'good' from 'bad', legal from illegal, allowed from disallowed. Cash does not care about politics, it is - by law - as valid for a communist as it is for a priest or a libertarian. This currently does not go for the services provided by banks to enable transactions in a cashless society as can be seen by the Swedish example; there is no compulsion for those banks to take up anyone or any organisation as a customer. In a polarised society like Sweden where the pressure to abide by the "ethical foundation" is very strong this leads to extra-judicial sentences on those who do not abide by or agree to those ethical foundations. Had those organisations been shunned because of their stance on, say, religion, those banks would be accused of discrimination. Discrimination based on political orientation however is currently not protected by law. If the "cashless society" is to succeed this probably will have to change, doing anything else will only lead to even more segregation where "left-wing" financial institutions refuse to do business with "right-wing" customers. In short, in a land ruled by law it is the law which should be the boundary between what is allowed and disallowed. As long as an individual or an organisations abides by the law their ideological standpoint should be irrelevant to financial service companies. [1] http://www.friatider.se/nordea-st-nger-ner-nationalisters-konton-kan-ej-motivera-varf-r-och-l-gger-p-luren http://www.friatider.se/nordea-st-nger-ner-nationalisters-ko... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4rdegrund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4rdegrund

fernandopj 9y ago
If only there was a way for society to go cashless, but not to rely on central authorities to decide who has money and who doesn't... Oh, wait. Joke aside, you just described why blockchain ideologists hope the future will be a global, decentralized system. So no one can unilaterally deny access to your money.

perseusprime11 9y ago

Maybe we should have an app that allows us to give tips easily? I am still dreaming of a true mobile wallet, maybe Apple Pay

atonse 9y ago

This is the kind of reason I hate tipping culture: I never knew that you were supposed to tip the Elevator Man. Now, I've only encountered an elevator man once in my life in the US. But still. It never occurred to me that he should be tipped. And that's my main problem, the ambiguity. There's no consistency in who should get tipped and how much is a decent amount. And that kind of opaqueness always hurts everyone involved but a few lucky ones.

acchow 9y ago
And the guy in the bathroom handing out paper towels. What if my wallet is in my jacket at my table?

unixhero 9y ago

Yeah tipping sucks. In Northern Europe it's it something we do. Unless we want to.

EADGBE 9y ago

A lot of the arguments for getting away from tips are for servers. There's already a solution in place to handle cashless tips for them. They aren't responsible for the transaction fee a lot of processors pass onto the gig economy. It works relatively well, even in the event of loss of internet or power. The laws of averages work out for an average server, I worked for 5 years in the restaurant industry and two years of that was 100% waiting tables. I averaged $24-$26K between those two years in two different states and 4 different cities. Both of those states are at the US minimum wage of $2.13/hr (for restaurant waiters). I worked about 30-40 hours a week. We're talking ~$12-$13/hr average. It's was definitely much better than any minimum wage position I could have had. Anecdotally, the servers I knew who complained most about the wage were also the least responsible ones with their money. We worked at a restaurant that gave you your tips at the end of the night and to many peers, the urge to spend that cold hard cash was too strong. Those responsible but just underpaid were underpaid either way; they still could usually keep it together at $12-$13/hr, still a good wage for someone relatively just getting started career-wise. Whatever wage you made from the $2.13/hr usually just covered your taxes. Most of my deposited paychecks were less than $10 every other week. I know that this isn't what other countries do, but it does work and keeps most families and individuals out of the poverty level. The requirements for work are relatively undemanding and most people who want a job serving get a job serving.