3 ms·

There's a lot of white on this map: [World Population Density](http://www.luminocity3d.org/WorldPopDen/ http://www.luminocity3d.org/WorldPopDen/) — the hard par

There's a lot of white on this map: [World Population Density](http://www.luminocity3d.org/WorldPopDen/ http://www.luminocity3d.org/WorldPopDen/) — the hard part is gonna be getting data between Europe and New Zealand without Big Wire. I love how Staltz's solution to this goes hand-in-hand with re-personalising our interactions. In short: 1. The Next Billion haven't yet become used to the idea that useful tech services must be global, and provided for you by a single corporation. 2. They want to communicate with other people they know, physically nearby-ish. 3. Sneakernet is never slower than talking in person. 4. Isolated mesh networks and comms with days of latency are viable for these new net users. 5. Get enough people using a mesh and the networks will start to connect. 6. Where the internet is already pervasive, privacy and autonomy advocates are resisting corporate control, and choosing decentralised alternatives. 7. For now, we can exploit the existing internet to handle long-distance. 8. But eventually, enough people will have the bottom-up mindset, and the weak links in the mesh will become worrying. 9. So a solution will emerge to fill in the gaps in the mesh, using ships / beacons / balloons / satellites / modulated whalesong.

staltz 9y ago
Good observations about the need for the Internet to handle long-distances. I wrote on scuttlebutt that telecommunication channels could become multi-modal like public transportation is often in Europe: https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25OryfD6hGpjiqwFkKyFnhVPZMPsZFgdFutEhzxycyolQ%3D.sha256 https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25OryfD6hGpjiqwFkKyFnhVPZMPsZF... Another way of bridging the gap in that white map is through data gossip: the person who leaves a village and comes back can bring data updates with them and share that with the village. Sneakernets in Cuba (as far as I know) work like that, but shouldn't be as fast as mesh gossip.
ashark 9y ago
How does a mesh cope with most end-user Internet-connected devices (phones) running on battery power, especially in less developed areas? Would we be back to needing infrastructure nodes with wall power, or solar, or whatever? This is what's keeping me from being over-the-Moon thrilled about stuff like IPFS—it's a bad fit for cell phones, which are most devices.
- gregknicholson 9y ago
  Each village might have 1 Raspberry Pi attached to a large hard drive and a solar panel, which stores everything — the village library. Each mobile device would only have to store the subset of data currently relevant to that person — like a backpack. Maybe there's also an Endless Computer at home keeping the data important to you long term: family history, photo albums, newspaper clippings — the home bookshelf. (In Scuttlebutt terms, the village library is a Pub; the home bookshelf is a Scuttlebot following only your immediate family and friends; the backpack supports out-of-order messages and discards anything more than a few weeks old.)
jl6 9y ago
I can’t help wonder if there is a way for Big Wire to exist in a way that doesn’t cause them to undermine democracy, society, free will and all the other apocalyptic end-game scenarios promised for Google and Facebook. Is there no way for long distance telecoms to just exist as a legitimate service that people pay for?
- WJW 9y ago
  This is how it is already. Just the other day there was a huge kerfuffle about net neutrality on the front page, which is EXACTLY people paying for long distance communications.
WJW 9y ago
Building a connection across a continent just by hopping from mesh node to mesh node is like trying to drive across a country by just using dirt paths. It is clearly not impossible, but there is a reason that most people choose to use highways for long distances. It is similar with a several-hundred-hop long path through a mesh network vs a single hop over a suboceanic fiber connection. In particular, step 5 is untrue over large distances such as across the Sahara. Step 6 is true, but does not necessarily lead to mass adoption. Step 7 is feasible, but costs a LOT of money at scale. Also, it seems that economies of scale would rapidly push out all inefficient means of communication in step 9 (assuming that sailing ships across the oceans and/or launching satellites will continue to cost money) and we would end up back with suboceanic fibres. Finally, while the "next billion" may not be attached to their unlimited netflix just yet, it seems highly unlikely that people in developed nations are willing to accept drastic slowdowns in their connections. Streaming video takes twice the bandwidth (both downloading and reuploading) as required for just watching on EVERY mesh node between the viewer and the producer. Caching might reduce this a bit, but is by definition not effective for "long tail" content. I'd be curious to see how long the meshes hold together when it turns out you can't see Game of Thrones because the next node over has no more bandwidth to spare.
- gregknicholson 9y ago
  > step 5 is untrue over large distances such as across the Sahara Yep. Focusing on local, social connections makes this less relevant. > Step 6 is true, but does not necessarily lead to mass adoption. Yeah, there's more scope for growth in places that don't already have abundant internet, where the pull is practical. But there are also a growing number of enthusiasts for whom the pull is principle, and they can help make mesh networking viable for poor people in rich cities. > Step 7 is feasible, but costs a LOT of money at scale. Step 7 is what you and I are doing right now :) — using the existing internet. This point was supposed to mean: the existing internet, can co-exist with and compliment mesh networks. Staltz's [Multi-modal connectivity](https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25OryfD6hGpjiqwFkKyFnhVPZMPsZFgdFutEhzxycyolQ%3D.sha256 https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25OryfD6hGpjiqwFkKyFnhVPZMPsZF...) puts it more eloquently. > it seems highly unlikely that people in developed nations are willing to accept drastic slowdowns in their connections. Never underestimate the value of cheapness! I know some people who don't have home broadband; they just use their phone's data connection. It's slower, but it's adequate, and it's cheaper. Mesh networking doesn't have to completely supplant ISPs. I want it to become a viable alternative, suitable for certain people depending on their priorities — like Linux! > Caching might reduce this a bit, but is by definition not effective for "long tail" content. If we're talking about data storage here (the flatbed truck — as opposed to data delivery, the series of tubes) then HTTPS can still be a highly-available option of last resort. If you want people to see your content, and no-one else is interest in replicating it, you can host it yourself or pay someone else to. Maybe use hashbase.io; they seem generous. If you mean data delivery, the packets have to traverse the internet somehow; it's just a question of whose box they go via.

staltz 9y ago

Good observations about the need for the Internet to handle long-distances. I wrote on scuttlebutt that telecommunication channels could become multi-modal like public transportation is often in Europe: https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25OryfD6hGpjiqwFkKyFnhVPZMPsZFgdFutEhzxycyolQ%3D.sha256 https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25OryfD6hGpjiqwFkKyFnhVPZMPsZF... Another way of bridging the gap in that white map is through data gossip: the person who leaves a village and comes back can bring data updates with them and share that with the village. Sneakernets in Cuba (as far as I know) work like that, but shouldn't be as fast as mesh gossip.

ashark 9y ago

How does a mesh cope with most end-user Internet-connected devices (phones) running on battery power, especially in less developed areas? Would we be back to needing infrastructure nodes with wall power, or solar, or whatever? This is what's keeping me from being over-the-Moon thrilled about stuff like IPFS—it's a bad fit for cell phones, which are most devices.

gregknicholson 9y ago
Each village might have 1 Raspberry Pi attached to a large hard drive and a solar panel, which stores everything — the village library. Each mobile device would only have to store the subset of data currently relevant to that person — like a backpack. Maybe there's also an Endless Computer at home keeping the data important to you long term: family history, photo albums, newspaper clippings — the home bookshelf. (In Scuttlebutt terms, the village library is a Pub; the home bookshelf is a Scuttlebot following only your immediate family and friends; the backpack supports out-of-order messages and discards anything more than a few weeks old.)

jl6 9y ago

I can’t help wonder if there is a way for Big Wire to exist in a way that doesn’t cause them to undermine democracy, society, free will and all the other apocalyptic end-game scenarios promised for Google and Facebook. Is there no way for long distance telecoms to just exist as a legitimate service that people pay for?

WJW 9y ago
This is how it is already. Just the other day there was a huge kerfuffle about net neutrality on the front page, which is EXACTLY people paying for long distance communications.

WJW 9y ago

Building a connection across a continent just by hopping from mesh node to mesh node is like trying to drive across a country by just using dirt paths. It is clearly not impossible, but there is a reason that most people choose to use highways for long distances. It is similar with a several-hundred-hop long path through a mesh network vs a single hop over a suboceanic fiber connection. In particular, step 5 is untrue over large distances such as across the Sahara. Step 6 is true, but does not necessarily lead to mass adoption. Step 7 is feasible, but costs a LOT of money at scale. Also, it seems that economies of scale would rapidly push out all inefficient means of communication in step 9 (assuming that sailing ships across the oceans and/or launching satellites will continue to cost money) and we would end up back with suboceanic fibres. Finally, while the "next billion" may not be attached to their unlimited netflix just yet, it seems highly unlikely that people in developed nations are willing to accept drastic slowdowns in their connections. Streaming video takes twice the bandwidth (both downloading and reuploading) as required for just watching on EVERY mesh node between the viewer and the producer. Caching might reduce this a bit, but is by definition not effective for "long tail" content. I'd be curious to see how long the meshes hold together when it turns out you can't see Game of Thrones because the next node over has no more bandwidth to spare.

gregknicholson 9y ago
> step 5 is untrue over large distances such as across the Sahara Yep. Focusing on local, social connections makes this less relevant. > Step 6 is true, but does not necessarily lead to mass adoption. Yeah, there's more scope for growth in places that don't already have abundant internet, where the pull is practical. But there are also a growing number of enthusiasts for whom the pull is principle, and they can help make mesh networking viable for poor people in rich cities. > Step 7 is feasible, but costs a LOT of money at scale. Step 7 is what you and I are doing right now :) — using the existing internet. This point was supposed to mean: the existing internet, can co-exist with and compliment mesh networks. Staltz's [Multi-modal connectivity](https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25OryfD6hGpjiqwFkKyFnhVPZMPsZFgdFutEhzxycyolQ%3D.sha256 https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25OryfD6hGpjiqwFkKyFnhVPZMPsZF...) puts it more eloquently. > it seems highly unlikely that people in developed nations are willing to accept drastic slowdowns in their connections. Never underestimate the value of cheapness! I know some people who don't have home broadband; they just use their phone's data connection. It's slower, but it's adequate, and it's cheaper. Mesh networking doesn't have to completely supplant ISPs. I want it to become a viable alternative, suitable for certain people depending on their priorities — like Linux! > Caching might reduce this a bit, but is by definition not effective for "long tail" content. If we're talking about data storage here (the flatbed truck — as opposed to data delivery, the series of tubes) then HTTPS can still be a highly-available option of last resort. If you want people to see your content, and no-one else is interest in replicating it, you can host it yourself or pay someone else to. Maybe use hashbase.io; they seem generous. If you mean data delivery, the packets have to traverse the internet somehow; it's just a question of whose box they go via.