8 ms·

HTML with great default styles and better built-in form and interactive elements (date picker, sortable tables) would be ideal. Screw CSS, it slows everything d

by ashark 9y ago

HTML with great default styles and better built-in form and interactive elements (date picker, sortable tables) would be ideal. Screw CSS, it slows everything down, just have good defaults and don't let pages mess with them much. If we must have CSS at least jettison the complex parts with animation and such. Make it very, very simple and weak. No Javascript. Can't be trusted if it has the ability to initiate connections or modify form data, isn't useful enough without that to justify the added bloat to the client. God, it'd feel lightning fast compared to what we have now. And it wouldn't be able to spy on you. A document-centric (once again) web that's somewhat less crippled than Gopher would be amazing, but we absolutely must cut out things like scripting in order to make the client trustworthy (and fast).

JohnStrange 9y ago
I'd like to see a return to semantic markup, accompanied by pragmatic information about the purpose of the data and its intended size. The data should also be strongly typed. Then leave it to the client how to display, how to edit, and how to select the data. The receiver should decide how to best display e.g. a list of 20000 names or a choice between 4 options on his device.
- dec0dedab0de 9y ago
  Me too, except I would say strongly duck typed. As in there should be sensible defaults when possible. In any case, the designers won this argument a long time ago. They want to decide how you consume their page, it is not a document to them, it is a work of art. How dare you want to display it differently from their vision.
- tzahola 9y ago
  <script src=“...” usage=“spyware”> I wonder where this would fail!
wvenable 9y ago
The problem with that approach is that you have to define all your possible use-cases up front. If the web had stayed as a simple document format, it wouldn't even be worth talking about now. A much more flexible and future-proof approach is a fully programmable environment without any declarative features at all. No HTML. No CSS. Just a clean API in a tight sandbox.
- ashark 9y ago
  > The problem with that approach is that you have to define all your possible use-cases up front. If the web had stayed as a simple document format, it wouldn't even be worth talking about now. Everything but web apps and spy-vertising would be better (for the user) without Javascript, overall. I submit that those can live on some other platform (the current Web could keep going) while most of the rest could switch to the low-footprint client that cannot spy on you or do user-hostile crap with its interface (popups, hilariously bad layouts/styling [see: Medium] that "look cool", and so on). Keeping low-trust scumbag code strictly separate from safe sites that don't try to screw with me because they cannot would be very useful. Ecommerce, Facebook, webmail, all that stuff would be fine without Javascript, if anyone cared to do that on this hypothetical Web alternative that treats the user with respect. Tried basic-HTML Gmail lately? It's faster, with its full-page loads on every interaction, than Ajax gmail and way faster than Inbox, and many of the most useful features it lacks from those could be added server-side with no more, or even less, difficulty than adding them client side (Inbox's categories, for example). Its worse layout issues, especially on mobile, would disappear entirely if we had sensible defaults (user overridable) for each platform's browser to which pages were forced to defer.
  - wvenable 9y ago
    > Ecommerce, Facebook, webmail, all that stuff would be fine without Javascript... But something as simple as voting on reddit would be tedious.
    - ashark 9y ago
      Why?
      - wvenable 9y ago
        Every upvote would refresh the whole page.
        ashark 9y ago
harel 9y ago
Sorry, but I wouldn't like to lose the ability to build fully custom solutions. I don't want to rely on defaults. One person's sensible default is another's insane one. JavaScript is what it is today because it serves a purpose and frankly, I think it does it well enough for now. And without CSS we'll end up with Beige boxed web, all looking the same, behaving the same, and stuck in someone's idea of a sensible default.
- ashark 9y ago
  > And without CSS we'll end up with Beige boxed web, all looking the same, behaving the same, and stuck in someone's idea of a sensible default. That'd be amazing. I wouldn't have to manually kill awful anti-user elements on half the pages I visit, learn how some special snowflake interface works yet again, and so on. I'd know exactly when server communication was going to happen. I could set custom user styles to whatever I like, or, probably, select from the most popular user-submitted ones on some settings screen. Write applications if you want that stuff. It's not like the current Web would go away, if you wanted to write exceptionally bad applications in e.g. Electron or write "web apps". I'd just like a program I can open to browse a document-centric web that I know won't spy on me, or use stupid amounts of resources to show me some text while hijacking scrolling, or show me popup ads, or auto-play video, make me adjust zoom levels per-page for the best reading experience, or any of that stuff that makes the Web worse and that we cannot get rid of without ditching (or crippling) Javascript and CSS. An enormous percentage of the Web would be vastly better under such a system, and most of the rest would be better as a real, native application.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - harel 9y ago
    Isn't it simpler to enforce-by-convention good ethical practices when developing web apps and sites? The slowness is many times not caused by the site but by the underlying extras underneath - useless and badly done ad tracking, overdose of adverts, video ads, sound - those can go. Good design however, sells. People who'd prefer beigebox internet are a minority. If they weren't the net would be different.
unit91 9y ago
> it'd feel lightning fast compared to what we have now I disagree with this completely. So much of what JS does is increase the (perceived) speed and sanity of the user experience. For example, in a scriptless world, your HN up/down vote can't be done without a full page load, which would come with the added headache of changing the state of the world on your page because stories and comments have changed their ordering. Solution? Return of the chronological thread (no thanks). And there are a lot of other applications in this same boat. I don't know if you are old enough to remember webmail when the refresh button was how you checked for new mail. I'd greatly prefer what we have now, where mail just appears over a socket. Online drawing/CAD apps or games without CSS and JS? Forget it. Or go back to Flash. Bottom line, we have the ecosystem we do today because the users demand it. For us as devs, it could be better, more consistent, etc. but we need the capability.
- ashark 9y ago
  > I disagree with this completely. So much of what JS does is increase the (perceived) speed and sanity of the user experience. For example, in a scriptless world, your HN up/down vote can't be done without a full page load, which would come with the added headache of changing the state of the world on your page because stories and comments have changed their ordering. Solution? Return of the chronological thread (no thanks). Counterpoint: when JS/Ajax-free versions of sites are available, they're usually faster in practice. Gmail, Google Calendar. Tried them in their low- to no-AJAX versions lately? I use basic HTML gmail because I got friggin' sick of how slow AJAXy gmail and Inbox were on my stupid-fast MacBook. For the specific case of upvotes on HN, IIRC this would be solvable with the appropriate 2xx response (I forget which), signaling success but not triggering a page load, without requiring any modification to current web clients. Obviously this hypothetical user-focused web successor would be well served by more flexible linking options (more method support, mostly) and built-in form capabilities—which happen to be things the current web really ought to have too, for that matter—but I don't think HTTP itself would need to change. IMO email and chat with notifications and such belong in their own programs, if you want stuff like live notifications instead of a static page. I'd rather bloat and code that can communicate with the outside world when I haven't specifically told it to not be included with my document browser, because it makes every operation on said browser slower, (way) less safe, and less predictable. Or hey, how about RSS/Atom for new mail notifications? > I don't know if you are old enough to remember webmail when the refresh button was how you checked for new mail. I was on the web well before Gmail existed, so yes, I remember the bad old days of webmail before AJAX. Most of the improvements we've seen in it would be served about as well by smarter, better client-provided form elements, and some other, smaller modifications to the client side, save update pushes. I don't think what we've gained from mixing traditional web stuff with the huge set of things a page might now do to/for you with Javascript and CSS has been even close worth the cost in trust, security, privacy, and predicability. Quarantine that stuff somewhere else, plzkthx.
jacquesm 9y ago
Yes, please.
workthrowaway27 9y ago
I would love it if the internet worked like this, but I don't see how we could ever get there from where we are now. Too much is invested in the status quo and people are too used to it. Gopher is cool. I bet if Gopher made it easier to link to other documents it would have really taken off.
- tannhaeuser 9y ago
  Well TFA has portrayed p2p as the way to go. Relying on classic HTML and/or other markup will help in cross-media publishing to get there. Presence of much more interesting content on p2p will take people there.
foopod 9y ago
A lot of the smaller blogs and personal sites I follow use CSS and Javascript in quite unique ways that give them the freedom to express themselves. I think this is a huge use case that your view misses out on in a people-centric web. I agree that articles would be a lot easier to read if everyone followed a consistent style. And sure the internet would be a safer and faster place without javascript. But you can't just throw it all out the window. It sounds like what you want is some sort of simple web, with nothing more than HTML and some decent default styling. Wouldn't a web based on markdown or latex be awesome?

by ashark 9y ago

JohnStrange 9y ago

I'd like to see a return to semantic markup, accompanied by pragmatic information about the purpose of the data and its intended size. The data should also be strongly typed. Then leave it to the client how to display, how to edit, and how to select the data. The receiver should decide how to best display e.g. a list of 20000 names or a choice between 4 options on his device.

dec0dedab0de 9y ago
Me too, except I would say strongly duck typed. As in there should be sensible defaults when possible. In any case, the designers won this argument a long time ago. They want to decide how you consume their page, it is not a document to them, it is a work of art. How dare you want to display it differently from their vision.
tzahola 9y ago
<script src=“...” usage=“spyware”> I wonder where this would fail!

wvenable 9y ago

The problem with that approach is that you have to define all your possible use-cases up front. If the web had stayed as a simple document format, it wouldn't even be worth talking about now. A much more flexible and future-proof approach is a fully programmable environment without any declarative features at all. No HTML. No CSS. Just a clean API in a tight sandbox.

ashark 9y ago
> The problem with that approach is that you have to define all your possible use-cases up front. If the web had stayed as a simple document format, it wouldn't even be worth talking about now. Everything but web apps and spy-vertising would be better (for the user) without Javascript, overall. I submit that those can live on some other platform (the current Web could keep going) while most of the rest could switch to the low-footprint client that cannot spy on you or do user-hostile crap with its interface (popups, hilariously bad layouts/styling [see: Medium] that "look cool", and so on). Keeping low-trust scumbag code strictly separate from safe sites that don't try to screw with me because they cannot would be very useful. Ecommerce, Facebook, webmail, all that stuff would be fine without Javascript, if anyone cared to do that on this hypothetical Web alternative that treats the user with respect. Tried basic-HTML Gmail lately? It's faster, with its full-page loads on every interaction, than Ajax gmail and way faster than Inbox, and many of the most useful features it lacks from those could be added server-side with no more, or even less, difficulty than adding them client side (Inbox's categories, for example). Its worse layout issues, especially on mobile, would disappear entirely if we had sensible defaults (user overridable) for each platform's browser to which pages were forced to defer.
- wvenable 9y ago
  > Ecommerce, Facebook, webmail, all that stuff would be fine without Javascript... But something as simple as voting on reddit would be tedious.
  - ashark 9y ago
    Why?
    - wvenable 9y ago
      Every upvote would refresh the whole page.
      - ashark 9y ago

harel 9y ago

Sorry, but I wouldn't like to lose the ability to build fully custom solutions. I don't want to rely on defaults. One person's sensible default is another's insane one. JavaScript is what it is today because it serves a purpose and frankly, I think it does it well enough for now. And without CSS we'll end up with Beige boxed web, all looking the same, behaving the same, and stuck in someone's idea of a sensible default.

ashark 9y ago
> And without CSS we'll end up with Beige boxed web, all looking the same, behaving the same, and stuck in someone's idea of a sensible default. That'd be amazing. I wouldn't have to manually kill awful anti-user elements on half the pages I visit, learn how some special snowflake interface works yet again, and so on. I'd know exactly when server communication was going to happen. I could set custom user styles to whatever I like, or, probably, select from the most popular user-submitted ones on some settings screen. Write applications if you want that stuff. It's not like the current Web would go away, if you wanted to write exceptionally bad applications in e.g. Electron or write "web apps". I'd just like a program I can open to browse a document-centric web that I know won't spy on me, or use stupid amounts of resources to show me some text while hijacking scrolling, or show me popup ads, or auto-play video, make me adjust zoom levels per-page for the best reading experience, or any of that stuff that makes the Web worse and that we cannot get rid of without ditching (or crippling) Javascript and CSS. An enormous percentage of the Web would be vastly better under such a system, and most of the rest would be better as a real, native application.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- harel 9y ago
  Isn't it simpler to enforce-by-convention good ethical practices when developing web apps and sites? The slowness is many times not caused by the site but by the underlying extras underneath - useless and badly done ad tracking, overdose of adverts, video ads, sound - those can go. Good design however, sells. People who'd prefer beigebox internet are a minority. If they weren't the net would be different.

unit91 9y ago

> it'd feel lightning fast compared to what we have now I disagree with this completely. So much of what JS does is increase the (perceived) speed and sanity of the user experience. For example, in a scriptless world, your HN up/down vote can't be done without a full page load, which would come with the added headache of changing the state of the world on your page because stories and comments have changed their ordering. Solution? Return of the chronological thread (no thanks). And there are a lot of other applications in this same boat. I don't know if you are old enough to remember webmail when the refresh button was how you checked for new mail. I'd greatly prefer what we have now, where mail just appears over a socket. Online drawing/CAD apps or games without CSS and JS? Forget it. Or go back to Flash. Bottom line, we have the ecosystem we do today because the users demand it. For us as devs, it could be better, more consistent, etc. but we need the capability.

ashark 9y ago
> I disagree with this completely. So much of what JS does is increase the (perceived) speed and sanity of the user experience. For example, in a scriptless world, your HN up/down vote can't be done without a full page load, which would come with the added headache of changing the state of the world on your page because stories and comments have changed their ordering. Solution? Return of the chronological thread (no thanks). Counterpoint: when JS/Ajax-free versions of sites are available, they're usually faster in practice. Gmail, Google Calendar. Tried them in their low- to no-AJAX versions lately? I use basic HTML gmail because I got friggin' sick of how slow AJAXy gmail and Inbox were on my stupid-fast MacBook. For the specific case of upvotes on HN, IIRC this would be solvable with the appropriate 2xx response (I forget which), signaling success but not triggering a page load, without requiring any modification to current web clients. Obviously this hypothetical user-focused web successor would be well served by more flexible linking options (more method support, mostly) and built-in form capabilities—which happen to be things the current web really ought to have too, for that matter—but I don't think HTTP itself would need to change. IMO email and chat with notifications and such belong in their own programs, if you want stuff like live notifications instead of a static page. I'd rather bloat and code that can communicate with the outside world when I haven't specifically told it to not be included with my document browser, because it makes every operation on said browser slower, (way) less safe, and less predictable. Or hey, how about RSS/Atom for new mail notifications? > I don't know if you are old enough to remember webmail when the refresh button was how you checked for new mail. I was on the web well before Gmail existed, so yes, I remember the bad old days of webmail before AJAX. Most of the improvements we've seen in it would be served about as well by smarter, better client-provided form elements, and some other, smaller modifications to the client side, save update pushes. I don't think what we've gained from mixing traditional web stuff with the huge set of things a page might now do to/for you with Javascript and CSS has been even close worth the cost in trust, security, privacy, and predicability. Quarantine that stuff somewhere else, plzkthx.

jacquesm 9y ago

Yes, please.

workthrowaway27 9y ago

I would love it if the internet worked like this, but I don't see how we could ever get there from where we are now. Too much is invested in the status quo and people are too used to it. Gopher is cool. I bet if Gopher made it easier to link to other documents it would have really taken off.

tannhaeuser 9y ago
Well TFA has portrayed p2p as the way to go. Relying on classic HTML and/or other markup will help in cross-media publishing to get there. Presence of much more interesting content on p2p will take people there.

foopod 9y ago

A lot of the smaller blogs and personal sites I follow use CSS and Javascript in quite unique ways that give them the freedom to express themselves. I think this is a huge use case that your view misses out on in a people-centric web. I agree that articles would be a lot easier to read if everyone followed a consistent style. And sure the internet would be a safer and faster place without javascript. But you can't just throw it all out the window. It sounds like what you want is some sort of simple web, with nothing more than HTML and some decent default styling. Wouldn't a web based on markdown or latex be awesome?