7 ms·
Has anyone found a place where detailed arguments for bitcoin (pros and cons) are laid out? Forums seem to be meme-based (e.g. "HODL") and/or superficial.
by dokein 9y ago
Has anyone found a place where detailed arguments for bitcoin (pros and cons) are laid out? Forums seem to be meme-based (e.g. "HODL") and/or superficial.
- uncoder0 9y agoreddit.com/r/bitcoindiscussion is pretty civil with plenty of well informed people.
- vasilipupkin 9y agotl;dr pros: decentralized, judgement resistant store of value cons: unconnected to any economic fundamentals, therefore without any analytical way to determine price.
- alexro 9y agoFundamentals are same as in social networks. But we don't know yet how to formalize them clearly.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- DenisM 9y agoThere are fundamentals: aggregate demand for money laundering and currency control evasion.
- vasilipupkin 9y agoright, but money laundering is to take dirty dollars and convert them to clean dollars. It's not obvious to me how aggregate demand for money laundering supports a specific price of bitcoin. If bitcoin is a mechanism for doing it, then the right metric is to look at the fees people charge for laundering money, not the amt of money laundered.
- option_greek 9y agoWith cryptocurrencies those two are tightly coupled. For example if 10mil had to be laundered in one go and the entire market cap is just 10mil or so, liquidity becomes a concern.
- DenisM 9y agoIf there are $20b waiting to be laundered and the total number of bitcoins is 20m the aggregate demand would support $1000 value of BC. This is what I would call "direct utility". There is also "indirect utility" - mindset of bystanders who are willing to transact BC because they know that others will provide liquidity.
- vasilipupkin 9y agowhy does it support $1000? if I launder 1 dollar, I buy a bitcoin and sell a bitcoin, so why does it support any particular stable value?
- bradleyjg 9y agoAssuming you mean legal judgement, I don't see why they'd be especially resistant. If the coins are held at an exchange then they are as reachable securities held that way. If they are in cold storage they are as reachable as a negotiable instrument (e.g. bearer bonds) or chattels for that matter (e.g. gold coins). The case of H. Beatty Chadwick is also worth keeping in mind (spent 14 years in jail in contempt of court because he claimed that he had lost all his money right before a divorce and the court didn't believe him.)
- sillysaurus3 9y agoIf the coins are held at an exchange then they are ss reachable a securities held that way. If you're storing coins on an exchange, they're not your coins. The point of BTC is you don't need to do that. The case of H. Beatty Chadwick is also worth keeping in mind (spent 14 years in jail in contempt of court because he claimed that he had lost all his money right before a divorce and the court didn't believe him.) A solid point, but two counterarguments: There's safety in numbers – if everyone were to do this, courts probably wouldn't jail more than a dozen or so – and at the end of your jail term, you'd still have your wealth.
- bradleyjg 9y ago> There's safety in numbers – if everyone were to do this, courts probably wouldn't jail more than a dozen or so As I mentioned, there's nothing specific to bitcoin about this strategy. You can do it with buried gold coins or with cash as HBC did. Or a dozen other ways. If "everyone" wanted to do it, they would have already. But ... > and at the end of your jail term, you'd still have your wealth. How much is 14 years of your life worth?
- JonnyNova 9y agoRivers and Mountains has a good selection of pro Bitcoin Cash material to read. https://www.yours.org/user/riversandmountains/ https://www.yours.org/user/riversandmountains/ https://www.tradingview.com/u/RiversAndMountains/ https://www.tradingview.com/u/RiversAndMountains/ https://twitter.com/upsupsanddowns https://twitter.com/upsupsanddowns
- martinko 9y agoBCash is a scammy altcoin
- option_greek 9y agoWhat I don't get is why people keep bringing it into btc discussions. I don't see other altcoins getting added to discussions this way. You can't equate them both in anyway because btc has lot more network effects going on for it. How ever, you can confuse people new to crypto currencies with it and I don't think that is good.
- cup-of-tea 9y agoOh please, not here as well.
- UncleMeat 9y agoIm not sure I've ever seen a comment section about btc in the last six months that didnt include a discussion of eth and at least one other alternative. BCH is not unique in this.
- lawlessone 9y ago>How ever, you can confuse people new to crypto currencies with it and I don't think that is good. I think that was the intention of bcash. They did everything to brand it as being the true bitcoin. Litecoin at least changed the damn name.
- Nursie 9y agoThis discussion makes Bitcoin fans look like bickering, factional children.
- PKop 9y agoHere's a solid "pro": http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/ http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/ Some highlights: The Bitcoin Central Bank's Perfect Monetary Policy Hyperbitcoinization Speculative Attack
- brndnmtthws 9y agoAbout 10 seconds of searching w/ your favourite search engine would reveal the Bitcoin wiki, which has this nice document: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths
- berberous 9y agoCurate a list of people in the space to follow, whether on Twitter, Reddit, or elsewhere. For example, Vitalik Buterin (Ethereum's creator), is always thoughtful, wary of the bubble hype, and posts interesting technical items on his blog, Twitter, and on Reddit. He obviously focuses on Ethereum, not Bitcoin, but some of his insights on blockchain are generally applicable.
- kbody 9y agoVitalik keeps on endorsing ICOs while he promised he would stop due to the abuse of the schemes. He keeps promising things while the existing software keeps on failing due to bad design and not strict rules or guidelines. It takes weeks for a really beefy machine to fully sync a full node. "Smart" contracts remain really difficulty to be written safely. Ethereum was unusualable when it reached its scaling limits just by one silly app of cat breeding. They are on the verge of doing another hard-fork to effectively revert some transactions and move some stuck ETH. It's really a clownfest that keeps on pushing badly written software just so they can sell it to greater fools and enterprise "smart"-dump money. Can't have respect for this kind of behavior.
- berberous 9y agoFrom what I've seen, this is inaccurate FUD. If I'm wrong, I'd appreciate examples with links. Some specific responses: 1.) All blockchains are having issues with scaling, including Bitcoin. Vitalik is working hard on scaling (see, e.g., his recent work on sharding and Plasma). I am not saying he will necessarily be successful. It's possible a newer competitor (like EOS, Cardano, Ripple, Stellar Lumens, IOTA, etc.) may have a better approach to scaling, although a lot of those competitors are overhyped, do not have a working mainnet yet, or have used other tradeoffs (e.g, security or centralization) in order to provide scalability. I'm not saying Ethereum is the best project, I'm saying that Vitalik seems like an honest, hardworking, direct, technical guy who avoids hype/FUD more than most in this space. 2.) "They are on the verge of doing another hard-fork to effectively revert some transactions and move some stuck ETH." What is this referencing? The Parity folks proposed something along these lines, but the community was not in favor and I believe it's been dropped. I have not seen Vitalik or the other Eth devs push this. 3.) Vitalik has urged people to be cautious of these overhyped valuations and ICOs. He has advised projects that are technically interesting, without endorsing the ICO raise itself or their valuations. I don't personally see a problem with that, although perhaps people differ.
- bsurmanski 9y agoFrom my understanding, the main benefit is zero trust transactions. You can make a digital transaction without trusting anyone, especially the other party. The downside is this guarantee has some trade-offs. Mainly transaction speed is super slow (10m to confirm a transaction went through) and transaction fees are very high (especially now with the "bubble", it's something above 10$/transaction). Furthermore, all transactions are public record, which isn't desirable if you're a fan of privacy. The value is very volotile right now, making it hard to really budget out your net worth. IMO, if you can just trust a third party (eg, credit card processing), then you get much better guarantees. (Fast payment, relative privacy, low transaction fees), with the further benefit of chargebacks. If someone steals money from your Bitcoin wallet, you're screwed, with a credit card you phone them up and they undo it. Actually, even with Bitcoin you need to trust a third party: the exchange. Many people hold their money in the exchange, and there have been multiple cases where they've lost a bunch of user's money. IMO a real bank or credit card processor is more trust worthy than a crypto exchange. That's all to say that currently crypto makes no sense for real transactions. That's not to say the issues are unfixable, for example Monero provides privacy guarantees. As well, other uses may be valid, the main case is "a hold of value", like gold. IMO, crypto has no intrinsic value (not even decorative like gold) and is very volotile, so it's up to you to decide whether it's going to last. Lastly, there are novelty uses like ethereum's trusted computation platform. That's a complicated topic in itself but pretty much each of these uses has a counterpart with much better guarantees if you can use a trusted third party.
- tcoppi 9y agoIt isn't zero trust though, you're trusting the miners(collectively) at a minimum.
- berberous 9y agoYou're not trusting the miners, you're trusting a system that was designed so that one would need 51% of the mining power to perform an attack. While there is a worrisome level of centralization in mining, you are also trusting the economic incentive structure of the miners is sufficient for no one to coordinate a 51% attack given the current dynamics.
- jacobr 9y agohttps://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets is slightly less terrible, but doesn't go in much on technical details
- runeks 9y agoHonestly, no, I haven’t. But, in my opinion, the pros and cons of Bitcoin are similar to the pros and cons of any decentralized system: Pros: as long as you are able to keep your private key a secret, no one can take your bitcoins from you; doesn’t require trust in party knowing what it’s doing Cons: no one there to bail you out; poor throughput (currently around 10 transactions per second) Most other pros/cons I can come up with depend on ones convictions regarding economic theory, so I only included the objectively true ones.
- soVeryTired 9y agoI think it's closer to four transactions per second: https://blockchain.info/charts/transactions-per-second https://blockchain.info/charts/transactions-per-second
- runeks 9y agoI’m talking maximum, not average. Also, it depends on transaction size; there really is no true transactions-per-second figure for Bitcoin. On top of that it depends on wallet software, too — most of which aren’t yet ready to benefit from the recent SegWit protocol upgrade (which increases TPS somewhat). In other words: 10 TPS is possible, but this assumes 1) taking advantage of SegWit and 2) a simple transfer from one account (input) to two accounts (destination+change output).
- cup-of-tea 9y agoPros and cons compared to what?
- clarkmoody 9y agoHere's about 150 links to get you started: http://lopp.net/bitcoin.html http://lopp.net/bitcoin.html The arguments for digital cash have been laid out since the cypherpunk days of the early '90s. Go read True Names: and the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier for the philosophical underpinnings.
- lallysingh 9y agoOne of the big ones driving the value (AFAICT) is that it's a way to get your money out of a government-controlled bank account. Not too useful in the US, but very useful when you have high inflation risk or tight controls on how much money you can take out of the country.
- randomThoughts9 9y agoSomeone posted this link on reddit today. https://think.ing.com/uploads/reports/171218_Why_Bitcoin_to_become_niche_asset-_Teunis_Brosens.pdf https://think.ing.com/uploads/reports/171218_Why_Bitcoin_to_...
- juanmirocks 9y agoI put here two of my favorite youtubers on crypto; they post almost daily. They are positive about the space, but also throw so-often-missed caution, plus thoughtful technical details and repercussions of the various cryptotokens. 2. Crypto Investor: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTKyJALgd09WxZBuWVbZzXQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTKyJALgd09WxZBuWVbZzXQ 1. DataDash: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCatR7nWbYrkVXdxXb4cGXw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCatR7nWbYrkVXdxXb4cGXw
- briatx 9y agoThis will sound absurd, but https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/ is the best place I've found for rational and serious discussion of bitcoin (and yes the occasional butt joke). Try posting a serious question there and see what happens!
- 659087 9y agoPeople discussing Bitcoin's cons are typically downvoted away by the same people yelling "HODL" and spewing various unhinged, delusional predictions about how a single Bitcoin will eventually be worth more than the US GDP. Because there are so many greater fools buying at ATH then trying to create more of themselves to avoid being the last one off the bus, it's pretty difficult to find an internet forum where it's possible to have an honest discussion of Bitcoin's pros/cons.
- Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y agoRead the whitepaper. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf It's not a pro or con article, but it's the most cogent description of Bitcoin you'll find.
- lug0r 9y agoBitMEX Research continues to do very smart and sophisticated observations in the crypto space. Regarding your question you might want to have a look at this specific blog entry https://blog.bitmex.com/value_proposition/ https://blog.bitmex.com/value_proposition/