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There is only one word suitable for describing bitcoin: scam The vested interest has been very successful in obscuring this basic fact, usually by conflating i

by Edmond 9y ago

There is only one word suitable for describing bitcoin: scam The vested interest has been very successful in obscuring this basic fact, usually by conflating it with a bunch of other unrelated matters (decentralized infrastructure, fee-less money transfer, easy international trade...etc) I penned a tongue-in-cheek layman description of bitcoin that alludes to the basic scaminess of it: http://blog.codesolvent.com/2017/12/the-bitcoin-scam-needs-to-be-shutdown.html http://blog.codesolvent.com/2017/12/the-bitcoin-scam-needs-t...

patrickg_zill 9y ago
Of course the problem is that major parts of your argument apply to the Federal Reserve system also, as well as nearly all other fiat currencies such as the Euro, Pound, Yuan etc. So exchanging fiat Euros for fiat Bitcoin means what, exactly?
- Edmond 9y ago
  No it doesn't apply to them. This is a popular argument from libertarians but unfortunately it is a purely ideological argument that has no basis in reality. The aforementioned currencies are backed by the value of their issuer's economies, those economies are real.
  - patrickg_zill 9y ago
    Establish the means by which my having a million dollars' worth of bills in my hand, can get at the value of the USA economy. If I can buy an item from Amazon or Overstock.com via Bitcoin or via Yen or via USD, explain how there is an actual difference.
    - selectodude 9y ago
      You have to pay your taxes with USD, so there's always a base demand for USD. Bitcoin has no intrinsic demand. It can go to zero because nobody needs it.
  - voidmain 9y ago
    @patrick Every American participating in that economy must pay taxes every year on their income. The taxes must be paid in US dollars, even if the economic activity uses a different currency or barter. Therefore Americans must come up with a quantity of USD proportional to the size of the American economy every year (or "go to prison"), and provided that the total amount of USD in existence is bounded (this part is the job of central banks) this places a floor on the value of USD. This story is necessarily simplified but I think essentially true. There is an old saying that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. Likewise, a fiat currency is a currency with a taxing authority. Gold, on the other hand, is just valuable because it is expensive to produce and has a long history of being valuable. So that model can work.
    - patrickg_zill 9y ago
      So when Japan said they would accept Bitcoin for payment of taxes ... ?
    - voidmain 9y ago
      "So when Japan said they would accept Bitcoin for payment of taxes ... ?" I'm not able to find any reference to such a move, which I would think would be widely reported in English. So I suspect you may have your facts wrong. I read that Japan no longer collects sales tax on digital currency transactions, but that is not at all the same. If, hypothetically, a major government accepted all tax payments and equivalents in XBT as well as their own currency, and credibly promised to keep doing so no matter what, they wouldn't so much be backing Bitcoin as "unbacking" their own currency. It would leave their citizens free to stop using fiat currency if they wanted, and if enough were eager to do that the value could go to zero. (In principle, that could be fine. In practice, contracts and other nominal rigidities would probably make the transition period... problematic) If a major government decided to accept tax payments only in Bitcoin, they would be backing it in the sense intended. (I'm not necessarily taking a bearish position on Bitcoin. Rather, I'm arguing that fiat currencies are not the right model for understanding its economics)
    - mchahn 9y ago
      > Gold, on the other hand, is just valuable because it is expensive to produce and has a long history of being valuable. ... Bitcoins are expensive to produce and if it hangs around very long it will have a long history also. So in the long run bitcoin could be a viable alternative to gold.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Bitcoin is not fiat; a fist currency is one whose value is based on its backing by a government (“fiat” specifically refers to the authoritative dictate of the State giving the currency value.)
  - patrickg_zill 9y ago
    The FT lexicon says: Paper money or coins of little or no intrinsic value in themselves and not convertible into gold or silver, but made legal tender by fiat (order) of the government. [1] Fiat money is an intrinsically worthless object, such as paper money, that is deemed to be money by law. ---- I will say that when Japan agreed to accept payment of taxes, with Bitcoin, they deemed it to be money. Probably I could find examples in the U.S. government prosecutions of criminals who used Bitcoin, that had government lawyers advancing arguments that treated Bitcoin as money, but, I don't have them to hand.
    - matthewbauer 9y ago
      > I will say that when Japan agreed to accept payment of taxes, with Bitcoin, they deemed it to be money. I'm really interested in figuring out if this is true. What source is saying this? From what I can tell some taxes might apply to Bitcoin in Japan but in no way can you actually "pay" taxes in Bitcoin (you can obviously convert it to Yen first though).
    - rspeer 9y ago
      The US government considers bitcoin a commodity. You will not find examples of them considering it a currency.

by Edmond 9y ago

patrickg_zill 9y ago

Of course the problem is that major parts of your argument apply to the Federal Reserve system also, as well as nearly all other fiat currencies such as the Euro, Pound, Yuan etc. So exchanging fiat Euros for fiat Bitcoin means what, exactly?

Edmond 9y ago
No it doesn't apply to them. This is a popular argument from libertarians but unfortunately it is a purely ideological argument that has no basis in reality. The aforementioned currencies are backed by the value of their issuer's economies, those economies are real.
- patrickg_zill 9y ago
  Establish the means by which my having a million dollars' worth of bills in my hand, can get at the value of the USA economy. If I can buy an item from Amazon or Overstock.com via Bitcoin or via Yen or via USD, explain how there is an actual difference.
  - selectodude 9y ago
    You have to pay your taxes with USD, so there's always a base demand for USD. Bitcoin has no intrinsic demand. It can go to zero because nobody needs it.
- voidmain 9y ago
  @patrick Every American participating in that economy must pay taxes every year on their income. The taxes must be paid in US dollars, even if the economic activity uses a different currency or barter. Therefore Americans must come up with a quantity of USD proportional to the size of the American economy every year (or "go to prison"), and provided that the total amount of USD in existence is bounded (this part is the job of central banks) this places a floor on the value of USD. This story is necessarily simplified but I think essentially true. There is an old saying that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. Likewise, a fiat currency is a currency with a taxing authority. Gold, on the other hand, is just valuable because it is expensive to produce and has a long history of being valuable. So that model can work.
  - patrickg_zill 9y ago
    So when Japan said they would accept Bitcoin for payment of taxes ... ?
  - voidmain 9y ago
    "So when Japan said they would accept Bitcoin for payment of taxes ... ?" I'm not able to find any reference to such a move, which I would think would be widely reported in English. So I suspect you may have your facts wrong. I read that Japan no longer collects sales tax on digital currency transactions, but that is not at all the same. If, hypothetically, a major government accepted all tax payments and equivalents in XBT as well as their own currency, and credibly promised to keep doing so no matter what, they wouldn't so much be backing Bitcoin as "unbacking" their own currency. It would leave their citizens free to stop using fiat currency if they wanted, and if enough were eager to do that the value could go to zero. (In principle, that could be fine. In practice, contracts and other nominal rigidities would probably make the transition period... problematic) If a major government decided to accept tax payments only in Bitcoin, they would be backing it in the sense intended. (I'm not necessarily taking a bearish position on Bitcoin. Rather, I'm arguing that fiat currencies are not the right model for understanding its economics)
  - mchahn 9y ago
    > Gold, on the other hand, is just valuable because it is expensive to produce and has a long history of being valuable. ... Bitcoins are expensive to produce and if it hangs around very long it will have a long history also. So in the long run bitcoin could be a viable alternative to gold.
dragonwriter 9y ago
Bitcoin is not fiat; a fist currency is one whose value is based on its backing by a government (“fiat” specifically refers to the authoritative dictate of the State giving the currency value.)
- patrickg_zill 9y ago
  The FT lexicon says: Paper money or coins of little or no intrinsic value in themselves and not convertible into gold or silver, but made legal tender by fiat (order) of the government. [1] Fiat money is an intrinsically worthless object, such as paper money, that is deemed to be money by law. ---- I will say that when Japan agreed to accept payment of taxes, with Bitcoin, they deemed it to be money. Probably I could find examples in the U.S. government prosecutions of criminals who used Bitcoin, that had government lawyers advancing arguments that treated Bitcoin as money, but, I don't have them to hand.
  - matthewbauer 9y ago
    > I will say that when Japan agreed to accept payment of taxes, with Bitcoin, they deemed it to be money. I'm really interested in figuring out if this is true. What source is saying this? From what I can tell some taxes might apply to Bitcoin in Japan but in no way can you actually "pay" taxes in Bitcoin (you can obviously convert it to Yen first though).
  - rspeer 9y ago
    The US government considers bitcoin a commodity. You will not find examples of them considering it a currency.