6 ms·

yay! With hunters who keep the woods overpopulated with deer etc. (because as they age they give better trophies) I can only hope that we will get even more pac

yay! With hunters who keep the woods overpopulated with deer etc. (because as they age they give better trophies) I can only hope that we will get even more packs in the future throughout the country. I have read an amazing report on how wolves changed the ecological system of yellowstone national park for the better (not quite sure which article specifically , believe it was https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduction-changes-ecosystem https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduc...) which makes me even more enthusiastic.

diego_moita 9y ago
I believe the report might be this one: http://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/30/science/in-2-years-wolves-reshaped-yellowstone.html http://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/30/science/in-2-years-wolves-... It is amazing because of the ripple implications: deer are scared of wolves therefore they don't eat on forests where they can be easily ambushed therefore trees have a better chance of growing therefore they make more shade on the river banks therefore trouts have better places to lay eggs. In the end: wolves bring more trouts. Who would have thought of that.
- swerner 9y ago
  The "wolves fix Yellowstone" narrative may be oversimplyfying things. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/opinion/is-the-wolf-a-real-american-hero.html?_r=3&referer= https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/opinion/is-the-wolf-a-...
  - jimnotgym 9y ago
    > and found that elk rarely changed their feeding behavior in response to wolves. Perhaps a more useful study would have been to compare elkfeeding behavior pre-1995 to post wolf introduction. By 2007 maybe the Elk had just got the hang of living around wolves. Maybe their behavior had already changed?
    - swerner 9y ago
      Those are the questions we'll never be able to answer for sure. All we can observe are correlations and cannot draw certain causations from it. Ecosystems are complex and its variables change constantly. The appearance of wolves was one notable change, but not the only one. Others have suggested drought as a possible factor for the change in elk population. Which one of the explanations is the truth, I can't possibly tell. Both sound plausible to a layman, and neither can be proven definitively.
woodpanel 9y ago
"yay!" is what only those people in Germany say, that don't have to live with the consequences that pack of wolves are their new neighbours.
- wirrbel 9y ago
  Oh snap. forgot that I left my flock of sheep in the front yard... seriously, what are these terrible consequences?
  - lindig 9y ago
    You might want to look after your horses and their foals that you don't keep in the front yard.
  - JTenerife 9y ago
    How about your kids? In Germany there are a lot of small villages. Kids still playing in the forests and fields. It's plain stupid to forget that wolves are predators.
    - wander_homer 9y ago
      No worries, by the time my kids manage to run into a wolf they are already run over by cars multiple times on the way to the forest. Or stung to death by wasps, bees, ... bitten by the neighbors dog, attacked by a boar, drowned in some water, ...
    - wirrbel 9y ago
      You know what is a concrete danger for my kids (and all other kids, in both rural and cityareas)? - cars and if you worry about animals - dogs (which are wolves, bread for insanity and not fearing humans, and sometimes trained to attack people) - chicken (salmonella probably kills a few kids a year)
    - zaarn 9y ago
      I fear boars much more than the wolves living in our woods. Wolves rarely attack humans and even if it is usually associated with rabies rather than an actual hunt. If you happen to walk into a wolf, it's probably gonna bite you and then leave you alone when you run away.
toomanybeersies 9y ago
I've never hunted in Germany, and New Zealand has very different hunting, but from all the Europeans that I've talked to, deer hunting is a managed system. It's not as simple as "keep the woods overpopulated". For starters, you tend to want to keep a good bloodline going. So hunters will cull off the deer of weaker bloodlines. You also don't want excessive competition, because you don't want malnourished deer. So there is incentive to keep the numbers at a manageable level. Lastly, there is actually a legal minimum number of deer that hunters need to shoot a year. They are required to harvest a certain number of animals.
- swerner 9y ago
  > Lastly, there is actually a legal minimum number of deer that hunters need to shoot a year. (excuse the German links please, I don't have any references in English for the following) Not only a minimum number, but an exact number: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abschussplan https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abschussplan In some jurisdictions, hunters are required by law to keep trophies as proof. Going over or under is a misdemeanour, and can result in severe fines in some cases: http://www.jagdrecht-bayern.de/jagd-4/abschussregelung/abschussplan/verstoss/ http://www.jagdrecht-bayern.de/jagd-4/abschussregelung/absch... http://www.jawina.de/abschussplan-nicht-erfuellt-19-000-euro-strafe/ http://www.jawina.de/abschussplan-nicht-erfuellt-19-000-euro...
- wirrbel 9y ago
  There are several associations for hunters in Germany, and one, the ecological hunters association is questioning how deer is managed. Don't know how the google translate translation holds up for https://www.moz.de/artikel-ansicht/dg/0/1/1459507 https://www.moz.de/artikel-ansicht/dg/0/1/1459507 but maybe it is an interesting read. It really seems to me that a predator is a missing piece in the eco system at the moment. Hunting and quotas is a bit like introducing a quick hack you need to maintain over the years, that requires introducing more hacks over time to keep the system alive.

diego_moita 9y ago

I believe the report might be this one: http://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/30/science/in-2-years-wolves-reshaped-yellowstone.html http://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/30/science/in-2-years-wolves-... It is amazing because of the ripple implications: deer are scared of wolves therefore they don't eat on forests where they can be easily ambushed therefore trees have a better chance of growing therefore they make more shade on the river banks therefore trouts have better places to lay eggs. In the end: wolves bring more trouts. Who would have thought of that.

swerner 9y ago
The "wolves fix Yellowstone" narrative may be oversimplyfying things. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/opinion/is-the-wolf-a-real-american-hero.html?_r=3&referer= https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/opinion/is-the-wolf-a-...
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  > and found that elk rarely changed their feeding behavior in response to wolves. Perhaps a more useful study would have been to compare elkfeeding behavior pre-1995 to post wolf introduction. By 2007 maybe the Elk had just got the hang of living around wolves. Maybe their behavior had already changed?
  - swerner 9y ago
    Those are the questions we'll never be able to answer for sure. All we can observe are correlations and cannot draw certain causations from it. Ecosystems are complex and its variables change constantly. The appearance of wolves was one notable change, but not the only one. Others have suggested drought as a possible factor for the change in elk population. Which one of the explanations is the truth, I can't possibly tell. Both sound plausible to a layman, and neither can be proven definitively.

woodpanel 9y ago

"yay!" is what only those people in Germany say, that don't have to live with the consequences that pack of wolves are their new neighbours.

wirrbel 9y ago
Oh snap. forgot that I left my flock of sheep in the front yard... seriously, what are these terrible consequences?
- lindig 9y ago
  You might want to look after your horses and their foals that you don't keep in the front yard.
- JTenerife 9y ago
  How about your kids? In Germany there are a lot of small villages. Kids still playing in the forests and fields. It's plain stupid to forget that wolves are predators.
  - wander_homer 9y ago
    No worries, by the time my kids manage to run into a wolf they are already run over by cars multiple times on the way to the forest. Or stung to death by wasps, bees, ... bitten by the neighbors dog, attacked by a boar, drowned in some water, ...
  - wirrbel 9y ago
    You know what is a concrete danger for my kids (and all other kids, in both rural and cityareas)? - cars and if you worry about animals - dogs (which are wolves, bread for insanity and not fearing humans, and sometimes trained to attack people) - chicken (salmonella probably kills a few kids a year)
  - zaarn 9y ago
    I fear boars much more than the wolves living in our woods. Wolves rarely attack humans and even if it is usually associated with rabies rather than an actual hunt. If you happen to walk into a wolf, it's probably gonna bite you and then leave you alone when you run away.

toomanybeersies 9y ago

I've never hunted in Germany, and New Zealand has very different hunting, but from all the Europeans that I've talked to, deer hunting is a managed system. It's not as simple as "keep the woods overpopulated". For starters, you tend to want to keep a good bloodline going. So hunters will cull off the deer of weaker bloodlines. You also don't want excessive competition, because you don't want malnourished deer. So there is incentive to keep the numbers at a manageable level. Lastly, there is actually a legal minimum number of deer that hunters need to shoot a year. They are required to harvest a certain number of animals.

swerner 9y ago
> Lastly, there is actually a legal minimum number of deer that hunters need to shoot a year. (excuse the German links please, I don't have any references in English for the following) Not only a minimum number, but an exact number: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abschussplan https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abschussplan In some jurisdictions, hunters are required by law to keep trophies as proof. Going over or under is a misdemeanour, and can result in severe fines in some cases: http://www.jagdrecht-bayern.de/jagd-4/abschussregelung/abschussplan/verstoss/ http://www.jagdrecht-bayern.de/jagd-4/abschussregelung/absch... http://www.jawina.de/abschussplan-nicht-erfuellt-19-000-euro-strafe/ http://www.jawina.de/abschussplan-nicht-erfuellt-19-000-euro...
wirrbel 9y ago
There are several associations for hunters in Germany, and one, the ecological hunters association is questioning how deer is managed. Don't know how the google translate translation holds up for https://www.moz.de/artikel-ansicht/dg/0/1/1459507 https://www.moz.de/artikel-ansicht/dg/0/1/1459507 but maybe it is an interesting read. It really seems to me that a predator is a missing piece in the eco system at the moment. Hunting and quotas is a bit like introducing a quick hack you need to maintain over the years, that requires introducing more hacks over time to keep the system alive.