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None. I don't mean current transgender people should be outcast, but we should begin to understand its external effects. They too are victims of stereotype. Th

None. I don't mean current transgender people should be outcast, but we should begin to understand its external effects. They too are victims of stereotype. They chose (perhaps felt forced to chose) to change their body to fit the stereotype. But the problem with being unable to discuss this is that people who are beginning to question their cis identity may not see the other option: being yourself in your own body, and not conforming to what society thinks a man or a woman is.

johnny22 9y ago
isn't that what non binary is all about? I see trans folks talking about non binary gender all the time.
- spiznnx 9y ago
  Yes, but that acknowledges there is a binary in the first place. You're still saying that cis (which is the default, no matter how much anyone wants it not to be) women should be feminine.
  - johnny22 9y ago
    there is a binary ATM whether wanted or not. It would be nice to move away from it though. EDIT: new words were invented just to enforce it. Some of the "nicer" ones for women are tomboy and butch.
T-R 9y ago
> They chose (perhaps felt forced to chose) to change their body to fit the stereotype. This is kind of presuming the conclusion, and ignoring the stated experiences of the people being discussed. The concept of gender identity (whether or not it does a good job of it) is explicitly intended to highlight that the causation isn't "I fit this stereotype, therefore I am this", but just "I feel I am this", with the implication that it may (or may not) be reaffirming to fit in socially with other people who are that way. Many don't identify with the stereotypes. Sure, some cling to stereotypes - maybe because they previously felt constrained from expressing themselves, or just as a practical measure against getting misidentified - but that doesn't imply that that's the cause or the goal. If you don't believe the claim that it isn't the cause, that's fair, but then it's just a person's beliefs against anothers' self-assessment. The term "transitioning" is also used in a general sense, including "being yourself", as opposed to necessarily taking hormones. Taking hormones, changing paperwork, doctor appointments, losing fertility, etc., is kind of a long, drawn out, stressful ordeal that inherently starts with "being yourself in your own body" until changes kick in; it's pretty unlikely that someone transitioning hasn't considered just not doing the hard part, especially since it's so slow that there's ample time to turn back. I'd wager most trans people are as opposed to gender essentialism and gender stereotypes as other feminists are. Nothing about accepting that they might actually just not be comfortable in their bodies, or at least just letting them be, implies philosophically accepting gender essentialism. Moreover, making the world more accpeting of people just being themselves is pretty closely aligned with just letting trans people be - if they actually don't need to transition, they'd be less likely to in a world where those who don't fit stereotypes, like trans people, are more accepted. And it's not a verboten topic - the Reddit trans communities have these discussions pretty often, when the questions are asked genuinely. It's just that, as with other minority-focused topics, it's often brought up with the clear intention of harassment rather than having an actual discussion, so there's a low tolerance for things that signal disingenuousness.
apenwarr 9y ago
You and your S.O. are conflating gender identity, physical gender, and expression. Basic transgenderism is very simple: the uncanny feeling that your physical gender is wrong. You have male parts but they don’t feel like they should be there (kind of like a phantom limb), or female parts, or vice versa. There is ample research showing that this can manifest extremely early (3-4 years of age anyway), long before cultural training about gender roles can play a part. You cannot simply tell these people to try harder and accept their assigned birth gender; that’s like telling gay people they should be straight because it would be easier to fit in. Well, yeah, it would. But it doesn’t work. Now, there are certainly people who are not transgender in that specific way, but want to express aspects of the stereotypical “other” gender or both genders. That’s a different thing, and they have a right to that too, but it’s very wrong, and misleading, to put all these people into a single bucket. Of course, it should be unsurprising that people who are “physically transgender”, besides feeling there is a physical problem, might want to express themselves differently too. The fact that these two characteristics are often correlated may be what is steering you wrong.
aninhumer 9y ago
I suggest you talk to more actual trans people. I thought like you for a long time, but these concerns are based on assumptions about trans people, not the reality. >They too are victims of stereotype. Most trans people are well aware that the gender presentations they're conforming to are stereotypes, and indeed many would quite like to be butch transwomen or twink transmen, but find it very difficult to be accepted presenting that way. They are forced to conform to stereotypes by wider society, not by the ideas of trans people. That said, trans people often do choose and enjoy quite stereotypical presentations, and when they do, it's basically for the same reason that plenty of ardent cis feminists do: Just because you recognise the socialisation behind your preferences doesn't mean you can easily escape it. > But the problem with being unable to discuss this Trans spaces actively discuss a wide variety of gender identity experiences and possibilities, and encourage questioning people to explore their own experiences, and find the relationship with gender that feels right for them. The message is not "these are the things you're allowed to be" it's "do whatever makes you feel comfortable". >may not see the other option: being yourself in your own body Most trans people will have spent a long time uncertain and trying to "be themselves in their own body" before they decide to undertake any medical changes, and many trans people decide to change their bodies only partially or not at all. Very few people are comfortable undergoing extensive bodily changes on a whim. And when they do decide to make these changes, it is often driven by feelings of intense depression inducing discomfort with aspects of their bodies, not simply a desire to look how other people expect.

johnny22 9y ago

isn't that what non binary is all about? I see trans folks talking about non binary gender all the time.

spiznnx 9y ago
Yes, but that acknowledges there is a binary in the first place. You're still saying that cis (which is the default, no matter how much anyone wants it not to be) women should be feminine.
- johnny22 9y ago
  there is a binary ATM whether wanted or not. It would be nice to move away from it though. EDIT: new words were invented just to enforce it. Some of the "nicer" ones for women are tomboy and butch.

T-R 9y ago

> They chose (perhaps felt forced to chose) to change their body to fit the stereotype. This is kind of presuming the conclusion, and ignoring the stated experiences of the people being discussed. The concept of gender identity (whether or not it does a good job of it) is explicitly intended to highlight that the causation isn't "I fit this stereotype, therefore I am this", but just "I feel I am this", with the implication that it may (or may not) be reaffirming to fit in socially with other people who are that way. Many don't identify with the stereotypes. Sure, some cling to stereotypes - maybe because they previously felt constrained from expressing themselves, or just as a practical measure against getting misidentified - but that doesn't imply that that's the cause or the goal. If you don't believe the claim that it isn't the cause, that's fair, but then it's just a person's beliefs against anothers' self-assessment. The term "transitioning" is also used in a general sense, including "being yourself", as opposed to necessarily taking hormones. Taking hormones, changing paperwork, doctor appointments, losing fertility, etc., is kind of a long, drawn out, stressful ordeal that inherently starts with "being yourself in your own body" until changes kick in; it's pretty unlikely that someone transitioning hasn't considered just not doing the hard part, especially since it's so slow that there's ample time to turn back. I'd wager most trans people are as opposed to gender essentialism and gender stereotypes as other feminists are. Nothing about accepting that they might actually just not be comfortable in their bodies, or at least just letting them be, implies philosophically accepting gender essentialism. Moreover, making the world more accpeting of people just being themselves is pretty closely aligned with just letting trans people be - if they actually don't need to transition, they'd be less likely to in a world where those who don't fit stereotypes, like trans people, are more accepted. And it's not a verboten topic - the Reddit trans communities have these discussions pretty often, when the questions are asked genuinely. It's just that, as with other minority-focused topics, it's often brought up with the clear intention of harassment rather than having an actual discussion, so there's a low tolerance for things that signal disingenuousness.

apenwarr 9y ago

You and your S.O. are conflating gender identity, physical gender, and expression. Basic transgenderism is very simple: the uncanny feeling that your physical gender is wrong. You have male parts but they don’t feel like they should be there (kind of like a phantom limb), or female parts, or vice versa. There is ample research showing that this can manifest extremely early (3-4 years of age anyway), long before cultural training about gender roles can play a part. You cannot simply tell these people to try harder and accept their assigned birth gender; that’s like telling gay people they should be straight because it would be easier to fit in. Well, yeah, it would. But it doesn’t work. Now, there are certainly people who are not transgender in that specific way, but want to express aspects of the stereotypical “other” gender or both genders. That’s a different thing, and they have a right to that too, but it’s very wrong, and misleading, to put all these people into a single bucket. Of course, it should be unsurprising that people who are “physically transgender”, besides feeling there is a physical problem, might want to express themselves differently too. The fact that these two characteristics are often correlated may be what is steering you wrong.

aninhumer 9y ago

I suggest you talk to more actual trans people. I thought like you for a long time, but these concerns are based on assumptions about trans people, not the reality. >They too are victims of stereotype. Most trans people are well aware that the gender presentations they're conforming to are stereotypes, and indeed many would quite like to be butch transwomen or twink transmen, but find it very difficult to be accepted presenting that way. They are forced to conform to stereotypes by wider society, not by the ideas of trans people. That said, trans people often do choose and enjoy quite stereotypical presentations, and when they do, it's basically for the same reason that plenty of ardent cis feminists do: Just because you recognise the socialisation behind your preferences doesn't mean you can easily escape it. > But the problem with being unable to discuss this Trans spaces actively discuss a wide variety of gender identity experiences and possibilities, and encourage questioning people to explore their own experiences, and find the relationship with gender that feels right for them. The message is not "these are the things you're allowed to be" it's "do whatever makes you feel comfortable". >may not see the other option: being yourself in your own body Most trans people will have spent a long time uncertain and trying to "be themselves in their own body" before they decide to undertake any medical changes, and many trans people decide to change their bodies only partially or not at all. Very few people are comfortable undergoing extensive bodily changes on a whim. And when they do decide to make these changes, it is often driven by feelings of intense depression inducing discomfort with aspects of their bodies, not simply a desire to look how other people expect.