6 ms·

My impression is that it is not only about topics, but also perceived intentions (and if you step, however unintentionally, on a trigger (of a landmine)). I wr

by stared 9y ago

My impression is that it is not only about topics, but also perceived intentions (and if you step, however unintentionally, on a trigger (of a landmine)). I wrote Dating for Nerds: Gender differences (http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differences.html http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differ...) and got no backlash (much to my surprise, though). From my experience nerds (and aspies in particular) talk mostly to exchange information (learn, share). Same questions are being understood by neurotypicals as expressing intentions, in a covert way. Nerd: I read that X, on the average, are less interested in tech. A non-nerd reads it as: I want to kick out all X from tech. / I consider X inferior. A non-nerd disagrees with the perceived intention and fights back, while a nerd perceives it as immunity to facts and unwillingness for a discussion. That said: - not all nerds are well-intentioned and open-minded - workplace is not a place for all possible talks (or other social activities); if it makes people feel bad, excluded or less productive - it may be an argument to keep such discussions outside of the workplace; in particular, workplace is not an evolutionary biology discussion club And BTW, from "Interpersonal Traits of Aspies Placed in Context": https://gist.github.com/stared/00ce50e95f9bcecc8965feb04650c19d https://gist.github.com/stared/00ce50e95f9bcecc8965feb04650c... see "Not Recognizing 'Yellow Light' Conditions" and even more: "Doesn't Apologize Readily".

insickness 9y ago
"A non-nerd reads it as: I want to kick out all X from tech. / I consider X inferior." I was out on an internet date with Scandinavian woman a few years ago. She was some type of sociological researcher, which interested me. I told her that part of the discrepancy in representation between genders in tech could be biologically oriented and she immediately said, "I don't want to hear arguments from biology!" She said it with the same tone and conviction you'd label someone a racist. It's as if once we allow these facts into the argument, it means we can say the fight for gender equality is finished, that whenever equality exists, we can all throw our hands up in the air and say, "It's biology!" I can see the danger but at the same time, the alternative--denying reality--is far more insidious.
- tarsinge 9y ago
  I can of understand her reaction (I would have had the same) and for me it’s in fact not very dangerous: - to my knowledge it’s impossible to separate biology and culture with the data we have - some discriminations were and are made by wrongfully attributing it to biological traits - since it’s hard or impossible to separate things a lot of people (myself included) adopt « it’s not biology it’s culture » by default because we think if we are wrong it causes less harm and is less dangerous than falsely attributing something to biology, and if it’s right then it helps the society progress. I understand closing the debate is frustrating for the scientifically minded and rationale people, but my opinion is that it’s not a bad heuristic for society as a whole at least until we make progress. But obviously the debate can happen in the right context, but I find it dangerous to introduce it in the actual climate of crtitical thinking we are in
  - korax 9y ago
    This leaves me wondering: What do you consider to be the right context for public debates about these thorny issues? What besides communicating with each other about those issues will move us forward? I don't think they will go away by themselves and I agree that some cannot be resolved, but then we should politely agree to disagree, after having explained our reasoning for each other's viewpoints, no? Disclaimer: I work in this space and we get this reaction quite often, so I am happy to read your thoughts on this.
    - tarsinge 9y ago
      It depends of the issues we are talking of. What I'm saying is that introducing biology at this point in the debate, by looking if the inequality is "natural" because phenotype A or chromosome B gives you some edge or not in science or other discipline, is kind of irrelevant given the weight of culture in our societies. I find it even dangerous because I don't think a lot of people are ready to understand the subtleties of a shift in a normal distribution (if one is present), and it'll just give them a wrong/misused "scientific" evidence for reinforcing their prejudices. Because I can't teach critical thinking in minutes I now resort to "it's always cultural" and try to move the debate forward to the (IMHO) main causes. (not a native english speaker so sorry if I missed your point)
erispoe 9y ago
Sure, there's average differences between groups. Between almost any two arbitrary groups you'll find significant differences. The problem is that there's a very slippery slope between stating a difference, ascribing causality (the difference is due to biology, for instance), and justifying it as a moral imperative (we should treat men and women differently). It's dangerous because if differences between groups are easy to pinpoint, they're much harder to explain. Even if you can get to a plausible causal mechanism, it doesn't say anything about how things should be anyway.
- kirillkh 9y ago
  How about the moral imperative "we should treat men and women the same", as opposed to "women are heavily oppressed, we must discriminate in their favor"? Would that imperative be justified by stating a difference?
nhaehnle 9y ago
> I wrote Dating for Nerds: Gender differences (http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differ... http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differ...) and got no backlash (much to my surprise, though). Skimming through it, it does seem pretty even-handed. Although I'd like to point out that you're writing a "guide for nerds" and consistently addressing the reader as if they were a man. Women can be nerds, too. It's fair to have a guide for male nerds, since the experience is bound to be quite different for men vs. women, but it'd make sense to actually point that out.
- stared 9y ago
  I address it in the first part, where I clearly point that out (http://p.migdal.pl/2017/07/23/dating-for-nerds.html http://p.migdal.pl/2017/07/23/dating-for-nerds.html). First, some pieces of advice are gender-specific. Second, I don't have a living experience of a woman. For nerdy women (dating man) some problems are similar (and I got quite a lot of of positive reaction from this group; and a few requests to write a text for that setting). For nerdy women dating women, it seems that most problems are the same (see also: Emma Lindsay's blog posts).
TheAceOfHearts 9y ago
Reading through "Interpersonal Traits of Aspies Placed in Context" has gotten me thinking pretty deeply about myself. I found many items in that writeup exceedingly relatable. I've previously been told that I definitely have some aspie aspects / tendencies, but hadn't ever given it much thought, especially on their potential impact.

by stared 9y ago

insickness 9y ago

"A non-nerd reads it as: I want to kick out all X from tech. / I consider X inferior." I was out on an internet date with Scandinavian woman a few years ago. She was some type of sociological researcher, which interested me. I told her that part of the discrepancy in representation between genders in tech could be biologically oriented and she immediately said, "I don't want to hear arguments from biology!" She said it with the same tone and conviction you'd label someone a racist. It's as if once we allow these facts into the argument, it means we can say the fight for gender equality is finished, that whenever equality exists, we can all throw our hands up in the air and say, "It's biology!" I can see the danger but at the same time, the alternative--denying reality--is far more insidious.

tarsinge 9y ago
I can of understand her reaction (I would have had the same) and for me it’s in fact not very dangerous: - to my knowledge it’s impossible to separate biology and culture with the data we have - some discriminations were and are made by wrongfully attributing it to biological traits - since it’s hard or impossible to separate things a lot of people (myself included) adopt « it’s not biology it’s culture » by default because we think if we are wrong it causes less harm and is less dangerous than falsely attributing something to biology, and if it’s right then it helps the society progress. I understand closing the debate is frustrating for the scientifically minded and rationale people, but my opinion is that it’s not a bad heuristic for society as a whole at least until we make progress. But obviously the debate can happen in the right context, but I find it dangerous to introduce it in the actual climate of crtitical thinking we are in
- korax 9y ago
  This leaves me wondering: What do you consider to be the right context for public debates about these thorny issues? What besides communicating with each other about those issues will move us forward? I don't think they will go away by themselves and I agree that some cannot be resolved, but then we should politely agree to disagree, after having explained our reasoning for each other's viewpoints, no? Disclaimer: I work in this space and we get this reaction quite often, so I am happy to read your thoughts on this.
  - tarsinge 9y ago
    It depends of the issues we are talking of. What I'm saying is that introducing biology at this point in the debate, by looking if the inequality is "natural" because phenotype A or chromosome B gives you some edge or not in science or other discipline, is kind of irrelevant given the weight of culture in our societies. I find it even dangerous because I don't think a lot of people are ready to understand the subtleties of a shift in a normal distribution (if one is present), and it'll just give them a wrong/misused "scientific" evidence for reinforcing their prejudices. Because I can't teach critical thinking in minutes I now resort to "it's always cultural" and try to move the debate forward to the (IMHO) main causes. (not a native english speaker so sorry if I missed your point)

erispoe 9y ago

Sure, there's average differences between groups. Between almost any two arbitrary groups you'll find significant differences. The problem is that there's a very slippery slope between stating a difference, ascribing causality (the difference is due to biology, for instance), and justifying it as a moral imperative (we should treat men and women differently). It's dangerous because if differences between groups are easy to pinpoint, they're much harder to explain. Even if you can get to a plausible causal mechanism, it doesn't say anything about how things should be anyway.

kirillkh 9y ago
How about the moral imperative "we should treat men and women the same", as opposed to "women are heavily oppressed, we must discriminate in their favor"? Would that imperative be justified by stating a difference?

nhaehnle 9y ago

> I wrote Dating for Nerds: Gender differences (http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differ... http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differ...) and got no backlash (much to my surprise, though). Skimming through it, it does seem pretty even-handed. Although I'd like to point out that you're writing a "guide for nerds" and consistently addressing the reader as if they were a man. Women can be nerds, too. It's fair to have a guide for male nerds, since the experience is bound to be quite different for men vs. women, but it'd make sense to actually point that out.

stared 9y ago
I address it in the first part, where I clearly point that out (http://p.migdal.pl/2017/07/23/dating-for-nerds.html http://p.migdal.pl/2017/07/23/dating-for-nerds.html). First, some pieces of advice are gender-specific. Second, I don't have a living experience of a woman. For nerdy women (dating man) some problems are similar (and I got quite a lot of of positive reaction from this group; and a few requests to write a text for that setting). For nerdy women dating women, it seems that most problems are the same (see also: Emma Lindsay's blog posts).

TheAceOfHearts 9y ago

Reading through "Interpersonal Traits of Aspies Placed in Context" has gotten me thinking pretty deeply about myself. I found many items in that writeup exceedingly relatable. I've previously been told that I definitely have some aspie aspects / tendencies, but hadn't ever given it much thought, especially on their potential impact.