4 ms·

I read through the list. My only comment is that if you cannot discuss an idea then the idea cannot evolve, and you probably won't change your mind. Maybe the

by sddfd 9y ago

I read through the list. My only comment is that if you cannot discuss an idea then the idea cannot evolve, and you probably won't change your mind. Maybe the problem is not oppression of ideas, but the lack of a discussion culture which can tolerate a wider spectrum of ideas for the sake of debunking some of them.

Aloha 9y ago
I think this is key. In the south (and other places) you're more apt to spot people who have deep bias against people for intrinsic things - in the North (including CA, and Northwest) those ideas are so completely unacceptable, that those people never get called out on them.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  How did you write that without realizing how oxymoronic it is? Were you trying to be an example of: "people who have deep bias against people for intrinsic things"? Besides your suggestion that prejudice doesn't exist in the north (lol), you're writing from the Pacific Northwest, one of the least diverse places in the country. Oregon is 83% white; Texas hasn't been that white since 1970, currently 45% non-Hispanic white. Washington state is 72% non-Hispanic. We deal with a diverse culture every day, most of us aren't racist and ignorant. Why did you say that?
  - wwweston 9y ago
    The assertion seems to be that racism -- perhaps even a specific manifestation of racism -- is more prevalent in the south than in other areas of the country. Not that everyone in the south is racist, or that everyone in the north isn't. Perhaps you would like it if even this more carefully worded thing was something people didn't say. If so, it'd probably be interesting to unpack why. Also, I'm not sure that geographic location counts as an intrinsic trait. And no matter how diverse your circle of association is, beware of assuming they're representative of what you'd see in a geographic cross section. Based on my survey of my Republican acquaintances in my home state, I would have assumed that Trump wouldn't have won the primary there.
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      I'm not averse to the discussion, but it was not carefully worded, by any means.
    - Aloha 9y ago
      yes, this - I'm actually advocating that racism in the north, northwest, and west is even more harmful, because those who are in the minority can't take any mitigation steps to deal with those who have bias.
  - Aloha 9y ago
    You misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm arguing that people who are biased is a constant - but in parts of the south its more culturally acceptable to be open about it. The way to end bias like this is by direct, constant exposure, as in interpersonal relationships with people who are different from you in; race, sexual orientation, or socioeconomic background. When you create a culture where people who are biased do not expose themselves, their perspectives will never ever be changed.
- briandear 9y ago
  Citation needed. Are you going to argue that there is more racism in a Texas company than a California company? You are really going to have to prove that. Have you ever actually lived in a city such as Houston? One of the most diverse cities in the country. Look how segregated Silicon Valley is. Cupertino and Saratoga Schools are —- about 80% Asian and 2% black. How is that possible given that racism is a “completely unacceptable” idea in California? Those schools are reflecting the employment of the region. Since those are expensive areas, only people with wel paying tech jobs can live there and yet the diversity is pretty much the opposite of the US as a whole. Perhaps Silicon Valley needs to be called out — far more than those “racists in the south.”
  - johnny22 9y ago
    not touching the actual issue of racists in the south, but do most people consider Texas the south? I never have. I never think of Florida either (although north Florida is a lot closer to what i think of when I think of the south).
    - Mithaldu 9y ago
      As a person outside the USA my perception is: Texas is part of the South. Rich white south instead of rednecks, but definitely South.
      - Aloha 9y ago
        I'd argue that east texas is part of the south - but west and north texas are their own animals - because of this, Texas as a whole is its own animal.
  - Aloha 9y ago
    You misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm arguing that people who are biased is a constant - but in the south its more culturally acceptable to be open about it. The way to end bias like this is by direct, constant exposure, as in interpersonal relationships with people who are different from you in; race, sexual orientation, or socioeconomic background. When you create a culture where people who are biased do not expose themselves, their perspectives will never ever be changed. Your final sentence raises exactly the point I was trying to make - you need a 'marketplace of ideas' to change anyones mind about anything - monocultures do not change minds - they just drive those who disagree underground, and if anything give those who disagree a persecution complex, and subtly reinforce their views.
robinwarren 9y ago
I think it is reasonable to question what people mean by "can't discuss". As mentioned in the article people can discuss anything, but certain things are met with some pushback which makes discussing them hard or unpleasant. I would say, if you hold one of these "taboo" opinions there is a reasonable amount of responsibility on you for how you open a discussion on them. If you do want to discuss them you need to try and raise them in a way which shows you are genuinely interested in discussion, including possibly changing your own opinion and trying to get a better understanding of others opinions without necessarily judging them. Rather than coming from a fixed position and trying to convert people, which in my experience rarely works. If you hold one of more of these taboo opinions and think I am being rude, suggesting you don't discuss properly it that those you discuss with are all perfect reasonable beings that is not the case. But in my experience it is not common for people to open a discussion honestly looking to assess their own opinions as well as those they are discussing with. If you aren't open to change your mind, why should anyone be open to change theirs? If you are already doing that, then good for you! Hopefully some minds will get changed and we can all move forward with a more honest understanding of the world.
- meowfly 9y ago
  > If you aren't open to change your mind, why should anyone be open to change theirs? A lot of discussion/debate is less about changing minds and more about mutual understanding of the underlying values. The problem is these "taboo subjects" all too often have people assuming the other's intentions and therefore the underlying reasoning for those bad arguments never get fleshed out. Thus the person with the taboo perspective just feels misunderstood. I imagine this is also how athiests feel in deeply religious parts of the US.

by sddfd 9y ago

Aloha 9y ago

I think this is key. In the south (and other places) you're more apt to spot people who have deep bias against people for intrinsic things - in the North (including CA, and Northwest) those ideas are so completely unacceptable, that those people never get called out on them.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
How did you write that without realizing how oxymoronic it is? Were you trying to be an example of: "people who have deep bias against people for intrinsic things"? Besides your suggestion that prejudice doesn't exist in the north (lol), you're writing from the Pacific Northwest, one of the least diverse places in the country. Oregon is 83% white; Texas hasn't been that white since 1970, currently 45% non-Hispanic white. Washington state is 72% non-Hispanic. We deal with a diverse culture every day, most of us aren't racist and ignorant. Why did you say that?
- wwweston 9y ago
  The assertion seems to be that racism -- perhaps even a specific manifestation of racism -- is more prevalent in the south than in other areas of the country. Not that everyone in the south is racist, or that everyone in the north isn't. Perhaps you would like it if even this more carefully worded thing was something people didn't say. If so, it'd probably be interesting to unpack why. Also, I'm not sure that geographic location counts as an intrinsic trait. And no matter how diverse your circle of association is, beware of assuming they're representative of what you'd see in a geographic cross section. Based on my survey of my Republican acquaintances in my home state, I would have assumed that Trump wouldn't have won the primary there.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    I'm not averse to the discussion, but it was not carefully worded, by any means.
  - Aloha 9y ago
    yes, this - I'm actually advocating that racism in the north, northwest, and west is even more harmful, because those who are in the minority can't take any mitigation steps to deal with those who have bias.
- Aloha 9y ago
  You misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm arguing that people who are biased is a constant - but in parts of the south its more culturally acceptable to be open about it. The way to end bias like this is by direct, constant exposure, as in interpersonal relationships with people who are different from you in; race, sexual orientation, or socioeconomic background. When you create a culture where people who are biased do not expose themselves, their perspectives will never ever be changed.
briandear 9y ago
Citation needed. Are you going to argue that there is more racism in a Texas company than a California company? You are really going to have to prove that. Have you ever actually lived in a city such as Houston? One of the most diverse cities in the country. Look how segregated Silicon Valley is. Cupertino and Saratoga Schools are —- about 80% Asian and 2% black. How is that possible given that racism is a “completely unacceptable” idea in California? Those schools are reflecting the employment of the region. Since those are expensive areas, only people with wel paying tech jobs can live there and yet the diversity is pretty much the opposite of the US as a whole. Perhaps Silicon Valley needs to be called out — far more than those “racists in the south.”
- johnny22 9y ago
  not touching the actual issue of racists in the south, but do most people consider Texas the south? I never have. I never think of Florida either (although north Florida is a lot closer to what i think of when I think of the south).
  - Mithaldu 9y ago
    As a person outside the USA my perception is: Texas is part of the South. Rich white south instead of rednecks, but definitely South.
    - Aloha 9y ago
      I'd argue that east texas is part of the south - but west and north texas are their own animals - because of this, Texas as a whole is its own animal.
- Aloha 9y ago
  You misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm arguing that people who are biased is a constant - but in the south its more culturally acceptable to be open about it. The way to end bias like this is by direct, constant exposure, as in interpersonal relationships with people who are different from you in; race, sexual orientation, or socioeconomic background. When you create a culture where people who are biased do not expose themselves, their perspectives will never ever be changed. Your final sentence raises exactly the point I was trying to make - you need a 'marketplace of ideas' to change anyones mind about anything - monocultures do not change minds - they just drive those who disagree underground, and if anything give those who disagree a persecution complex, and subtly reinforce their views.

robinwarren 9y ago

I think it is reasonable to question what people mean by "can't discuss". As mentioned in the article people can discuss anything, but certain things are met with some pushback which makes discussing them hard or unpleasant. I would say, if you hold one of these "taboo" opinions there is a reasonable amount of responsibility on you for how you open a discussion on them. If you do want to discuss them you need to try and raise them in a way which shows you are genuinely interested in discussion, including possibly changing your own opinion and trying to get a better understanding of others opinions without necessarily judging them. Rather than coming from a fixed position and trying to convert people, which in my experience rarely works. If you hold one of more of these taboo opinions and think I am being rude, suggesting you don't discuss properly it that those you discuss with are all perfect reasonable beings that is not the case. But in my experience it is not common for people to open a discussion honestly looking to assess their own opinions as well as those they are discussing with. If you aren't open to change your mind, why should anyone be open to change theirs? If you are already doing that, then good for you! Hopefully some minds will get changed and we can all move forward with a more honest understanding of the world.

meowfly 9y ago
> If you aren't open to change your mind, why should anyone be open to change theirs? A lot of discussion/debate is less about changing minds and more about mutual understanding of the underlying values. The problem is these "taboo subjects" all too often have people assuming the other's intentions and therefore the underlying reasoning for those bad arguments never get fleshed out. Thus the person with the taboo perspective just feels misunderstood. I imagine this is also how athiests feel in deeply religious parts of the US.