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What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley
- perfmode 9y agoIt seems regardless of one’s viewpoint, there is a strong reluctance to digging deeper to examine the roots of one’s beliefs. A lot of these people might not believe what they believe if they were to attempt to justify their beliefs in a rigorous and intellectually honest way.
- venomsnake 9y agoI can think of one taboo opinion - supporting prop 8. Results - being fired. Also it was made effective with back date. The firing of Brendan Eich was as chilling effect as possible. In the current climate you could get a pitchfork mob after you extremely easy for even stuff perceived as homophobic - as the recent suicide of August Ames showed.
- temp 9y agoAre you allowed to discuss income equality for male porn actors? Or is that taboo?
- kazagistar 9y agoJust debate the real issue you care about, instead of fighting passive-aggressive proxy wars or whatever.
- d33 9y agoAre you implying he doesn't care about this issue? What leads you to this claim?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- backpropaganda 9y agoAnd why is proxy wars a bad idea? A lot about war is symbolism. Hell, the whole reason armies march to a battlefield is because it's a proxy of a real battle where civilians would die. Well-accepted movements like feminism also engage with proxy wars, such as "free the nipples", "a day without women", etc. All these are pretty much symbolism, with some actual tangible value. Male porn star income equality is not only a symbol for striving for true quality, it also serves to demonstrate that as a society we seem to be fine with tolerating inequality at some places, and that feminism is not as much about equality as about identity politics (not that identity politics is inherently wrong).
- johnny22 9y agoI've never heard that this is a taboo opinion?
- temp 9y agoI just assumed it's taboo since it's 1) almost never voiced by proponents of income equality despite being a very good example of extreme income inequality 2) frowned upon as a discussion point any time I've seen it mentioned 3) and apparently it's frowned upon on HN as well since it ended up flagged down and hidden I believe that fits the definition of "taboo" pretty well.
- johnny22 9y ago1) because the the constituency is too small probably 2) because it sounds like you're changing the topic about what's taboo in SV 3) i think people downvoted it because it's not relevant to the topic of what's taboo in SV.
- vxNsr 9y agoSo basically people with opinions on both extremes feel marginalized and unheard. I guess that's maybe a message to consider a more nuanced position.
- spiznnx 9y agoI want Silicon Valley to be a place where you can publicly hold extreme views and not be a huge social liability to anyone you associate with (employer, friends).
- paloaltokid 9y agoWhat’s an extreme view in your book? Extreme views, by definition, must brush up against the limits of what’s legal or ethical.
- gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y agoThe thing is you are free to hold and expose extreme views - and I strongly support your right to do so and not to be subject to persecution from the state for doing so. However I also have the right to not associate with you if I think that you are a dick.
- vxNsr 9y agoUgh, so done with this xkcd. Ignoring people who we don't agree with is how we got to a place where supporting your political party was more important than having an ideology you could morally justify. I personally lean fairly far to the right but I spend a lot of time listening to NPR, reading slate, and other pretty lefty publications. When I talk to people who only consume one side of the media, whether it's right or left, I feel like I'm talking to a wall of nonsense. People have so little understanding of those they disagree with and will dismiss them with "they're a bunch of idiots" so quickly that their position has no basis in reality. I'm not saying we should give everyone a platform, I'm saying that if someone says "all the rich should be killed" or "gay men don't know love" each position despite being on diametrically opposite sides of our current political landscape need to be understood if we want to move forward.
- sddfd 9y agoI read through the list. My only comment is that if you cannot discuss an idea then the idea cannot evolve, and you probably won't change your mind. Maybe the problem is not oppression of ideas, but the lack of a discussion culture which can tolerate a wider spectrum of ideas for the sake of debunking some of them.
- Aloha 9y agoI think this is key. In the south (and other places) you're more apt to spot people who have deep bias against people for intrinsic things - in the North (including CA, and Northwest) those ideas are so completely unacceptable, that those people never get called out on them.
- aaron-lebo 9y agoHow did you write that without realizing how oxymoronic it is? Were you trying to be an example of: "people who have deep bias against people for intrinsic things"? Besides your suggestion that prejudice doesn't exist in the north (lol), you're writing from the Pacific Northwest, one of the least diverse places in the country. Oregon is 83% white; Texas hasn't been that white since 1970, currently 45% non-Hispanic white. Washington state is 72% non-Hispanic. We deal with a diverse culture every day, most of us aren't racist and ignorant. Why did you say that?
- wwweston 9y agoThe assertion seems to be that racism -- perhaps even a specific manifestation of racism -- is more prevalent in the south than in other areas of the country. Not that everyone in the south is racist, or that everyone in the north isn't. Perhaps you would like it if even this more carefully worded thing was something people didn't say. If so, it'd probably be interesting to unpack why. Also, I'm not sure that geographic location counts as an intrinsic trait. And no matter how diverse your circle of association is, beware of assuming they're representative of what you'd see in a geographic cross section. Based on my survey of my Republican acquaintances in my home state, I would have assumed that Trump wouldn't have won the primary there.
- to_bpr 9y agoSV has championed a super toxic, toe-the-liberal-line-question-nothing atmosphere in the workplace for years now. The damage is done. You'd have to be a total fool to bring up any of the non-left-wing, yet totally valid comments on that post in a tech workplace in 2017.
- gaius 9y agoHere's how it works in London: a right-wing racist will call you a racist epithet to your face. A left-wing racist will talk a lot about diversity but work behind the scenes to ethnically cleanse your neighbourhood (aka "gentrification").
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- bdamm 9y ago"Silicon Valley" is a workplace, and it's generally considered rude to bring your political views into the workplace. Everyone has met the very passionate on both the left and the right, and having someone stand outside your cube or in the lunch line trying to "win" you over to their view just isn't conducive to getting your work done and making money.
- stevenwliao 9y agoThe contention is that the “correct” views can be openly discussed.
- briandear 9y agoUnless you are on the left, then in SV it’s perfectly acceptable.
- briandear 9y agoWhy is this downvoted? It’s a fact.
- WillPostForFood 9y agoIt isn't political debate that it is the issue, it is the absolute assumption that everyone agrees with the standard SV dogma, so people say political things all the time, with no intent to debate, because they are just the accepted truth. A subtle example would be trashing "flyover" states. There is no intent to debate whether people from Texas are rednecks, but people feel free to say it.
- gaius 9y agoA subtle example would be trashing "flyover" states. There is no intent to debate whether people from Texas are rednecks, but people feel free to say it. Similarly the Brexit vote revealed alot about people's true characters and beliefs. The vote largely broke down along class lines, working class for Leave, middle class for Remain. And those middle class types, who tirelessly virtue signal about how left-wing they are, when confronted with what the actual Workers really want, are quick to condemn the entire lot as racist mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging morons. Class divisions are never far from the surface in the UK.
- cowpig 9y agoIt's funny, I don't see it on the list but by far the biggest taboo in SV in my experience is talking about things going badly. You're doing great, killing it even, or you should keep it to yourself.
- johnny22 9y agonow that's taboo.. so taboo it doesn't even make the list because people can't even think it :)
- malmsteen 9y agoI don't know if it's really specific to startup. In life in general no one cares about you and people tend to avoid you if it's going badly (except very close friends).
- cowpig 9y agoWell, I grew up in NYC where sarcasm and cynicism reign supreme. SV culture is really jarring.
- evangelista 9y ago“A lot of the ideas here will not actually get you ostracized from Silicon Valley society.” Oh dude you have just not been paying attention. Can you show me a single example of someone in tech who publicly expresses, at any point, any of the beliefs which are “not allowed?” I’m looking for one. Find me one person on Twitter in tech aside from John McAfee or Peter Theil who would dare. Sam Altman was good enough to step forward, I hope he won’t be the last. The complete and total castigation of the dude by every tech media outlet showed exactly what happens to anyone who isn’t rich enough not to care. While Sam Altman can take a beating, a standard employee like James Damore can’t. Did we forget about him? Apparently we did! Show me a single tech luminary staying that diversity is overrated and has numerous downsides (such as the degradation of communal trust which had swept the valley), that we don’t actually need additional codes of conduct to add protections that are already covered in the US legal code at every Meetup, that all gender bathrooms are lunacy or that most of the Millenials coming into the job market have an incredibly broken and fearful view of the world that is unwarranted by the available evidence. Show me a single tech luminary willing to say that women should realize they have advantages and disadvantages and should take responsibility for guarding themselves st off-site social events to avoid being approached by men. One! Show me one! I can find these opinions on conservative podcasts but I have never seen anyone express them in tech. Ever! I see a non-stop avalanche of one set of these opinions on every social media feed, internal company meeting and industry conference. I have NEVER seen ANYONE notable in tech aside from Peter Thiel, who has been made untouchable st this point. Why is that? It’s because they know it’s not good business and they will get to join Peter Theil in the excommunicated pile. A great example is Scott Adams. Scott used to make hundreds of thousands of dollars per year giving paid speeches. When he began writing about Trump, he was excommunicated and all of his speaking gigs were cancelled. Another great example is the systematic and deliberate demonetization of conservative YouTube videos. People who are very balanced and fair like Dave Rubin have had their videos defunded for having conservative speakers as interview guests. Twitter has been notorious for slowing down or “never getting around to” giving Blue Check Marks to conservative speakers - If I remember correctly, Scott Adams had to reach a simply insane number of followers before being given the check. The hatred of conservatives and direct, persecutory and economic attacks on them is real, ongoing and getting worse. Seriously - if you believe most of these opinions won’t harm your career if expressed publicly, you have really not been paying attention. If you don’t believe me - Try it. Go on Twitter right now and say: “all gender bathrooms are stupid.” Watch what happens.
- wolco 9y agoOne quote I picked out. Early stage employees have it bad. This is true but the increase freedom can balance this out. Stock options are generally useless and in many ways force employees not to move on to better opportunities.
- EmilStenstrom 9y agoThere's a big difference between ideas that weaken minorities, and ideas that weaken majorities, because you get blowback for different reasons. When you attack minorities the people that get upset with you, are people that are worried that weakening an already weak group is a bad thing. When you attack majorities however, you get blowback from the people that are afraid to lose their power. I agree that there are problems with not allowing people to express all kinds of ideas, but there's a big difference in the two types above: You should be more careful when attacking the already weak, for their position is already brittle.
- briandear 9y agoWhy weaken anyone? It isn’t zero sum. The free market has nothing to do with minorities or majorities: people don’t care about the race of a person selling them bread — they just want the cheapest bread at the highest quality.
- johnny22 9y agothey sure did care for the race of the people they sold it to though. In any case, none of what you said matches actual American history.
- kazagistar 9y ago(I'm going to assume from context you don't mean minority as in population, but rather power dynamics as you talk about for the rest of the post.) The problem distinguishing stronger and weaker sides is that there isn't an objective metric that both sides can agree on. The reason gender issues are so prevalent on this list and are such a hot topic is exactly because it is a debate about which side is weaker, about which measures of power are valid and invalid, and so on.
- EmilStenstrom 9y agoThat there isn't a metric is a really interesting problem. I think most debates should start with talking about metrics. For instance, when talking about skewed power dynamics when it come to gender, you could look at the number of men vs. women in management positions. Being able to fire someone is a form of power. Or you could look at raw salaries, and say that money is a form of power. And so on. Would make many discussions a lot clearer.
- anonbanker 9y agoThis is a fantastic HN thread to scroll to the very bottom, and see which opinions have been greyed-out from heavy downvote bombardments. Highly recommended.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- frik 9y agoYes, and the HN news of yesterday got flagged and my account shadow banned. Apparently, someone should write a "What you can't say on Hackernews" (which will get banned) which lead to a "What People think you can't say on Hackernews"...
- dang 9y ago"Shadowban" means banning without saying so. We told you directly that we banned you, and why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15939534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15939534. And we'd warned you a huge number of times in the past. You've posted even more abusive comments since we banned you, confirming that it was the right call.
- frik 9y agoYeah, and I replied ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15944546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15944546 ) but you don't reply, stay on-topic and answer please why you set so many news to invisible. My account got set by you several months ago already in a different state. An account-state that: * lowered the comment start-ranked to below normal. * that made my news & comment votes not count at all, just showed only to me * rate-limited writing comments and submit news (only 3 comments or 1 news per day) otherwise "slow down, not so fast" You showed me the big middle finger by mangling with my account. There is no way to recover the account from that state. You are a rough admin, that doesn't always adhere to the sites guidelines, only if you feel this way. And I only ever asked that you look at the server logs to check if a certain company employs sock puppets. I was nice, you just mangled with my account-state. And this only because I noticed among many others that HN partners are handled with great care and allowed to post things and do things against your very guideline. And now instead of talking about why so many news get hidden in the last few weeks and so many comments get flagged. No comment at all about that. Someone of YC management should look over the admins of HN, and check their work from time to time. So maybe you could stay on-topic, and answer why so many news and comments vanish/get hidden recently.
- spiznnx 9y agoMy S.O. thinks that transgender thought poses a threat to feminist aims and should not be acceptable to society, and has some really good arguments. I'm starting to be convinced, but I really can't discuss it with anyone else. edit: goodnight as its getting late.
- ggg9990 9y agoI'm not sure why something becomes "unacceptable to society" just because it "poses a threat to feminist aims." What's the first principles reason why it should be unacceptable?
- spiznnx 9y agoIt's not really something that can be well summarized in a hn comment, but basically, it re-enforces the idea that men and women are actually so different that you have to be a certain gender just to do something you want to do (gender essentialism). My main point is, if it were acceptable, my s.o. would have a blog post about it that I could just link you to.
- Cookingboy 9y agoJesus, that logic just broke my brain, and I'm not saying that dismissively. Now I need to really think about this...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- edmccard 9y ago>basically, it re-enforces the idea that men and women are actually so different that you have to be a certain gender just to do something you want to do (gender essentialism) Do you think there's a difference between thinking you have to be a woman because you want (for example) to be a nurse, and thinking you have to be a woman because you want to be a woman?
- aestetix 9y agoWhat I read about the current climate in the US reminds me a lot of how things were in the months after 9/11. While I don't have unbiased data like in the link, I can share a personal anecdote: In the months after 9/11, if you spoke up and said you didn't agree with US foreign policy (invading Afghanistan) or that you didn't approve of Bush and wanted him to resign, you got blacklisted. I had a friend, every house in his neighborhood had an American flag except for his, because his dad was an introverted engineer and uninterested in politics. The absence of the flag was obvious, and after a few nights of things like eggs on the door, flaming dog shit, and finally a dead animal left on the door mat, he put up an American flag and all the drama went away.
- briandear 9y agoTry putting up a Ted Cruz sign in Mountain View.
- paloaltokid 9y agoThat’d be kinda silly since Ted Cruz is a Texas senator. But if you mean for President, probably you’d take some heat.
- rdiddly 9y agoAnd that is why we won't stop fascism - people are too in love with it!
- svoneoff 9y agoBiggest taboo I've found? The demographics of Google and Facebook are very good for attracting young geeky males. Deliberately vague about the why here. Highly unpopular to state it.
- danieltillett 9y agoI think the most interesting thing about the recent debate is our true rulers must be getting worried that things are getting out of control. They have not forgotten about the Reign of Terror [0] or where this sort of thing can lead. There is the real risk the masses actually might not be distracted by the usual left/right pointless bickering and actually follow the money. 0. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror Edit. Good to see what the real topic is you can't discuss in SV ;)
- rdiddly 9y agoThe "taboo" list is surprisingly run-of-the-mill. All of it seems like stuff I see people discussing on the internet all the time. I thought there might be a few original thoughts, but even the things they claim they can't say are things they're kind of supposed to think. Different sides of boring issues. Anyway rest assured there's no need to stifle heretical ideas with these people. The ones thinking anything truly original were probably either the ones left out of the 108, or never bothered answering or are already in institutions etc.
- blfr 9y agoThese cannot be original ideas because they must have been expressed a few times before people learned you shouldn't discuss them.
- olavk 9y agoAs someone living far away from SV, this is fascinating reading. But I think the survey could be more precise about what "can't say" really means. Will you get literally ostracized for holding the viewpoint in private or on a blog, or will you get fired for bringing it up in the workplace? I personally believe some viewpoints really are inappropriate to bring up in a professional working environment. If I genuinely believe read-headed people have a brain structure which makes them inferior developers, I don't think I should bring this issue up during a meeting. Sure, my red-headed coworkers have the option of challenging my viewpoints and perhaps a fruitful discussion will follow - where I will convince them with rational arguments and evidence that my viewpoint is correct. But I think it is fair if said red-headed colleagues would prefer not to have the discussion at all. I notice the top taboo subjects are diversity, racism, sexism etc - exactly subjects where you can indirectly question a colleagues competence.
- backpropaganda 9y agoIf your company is spending a significant fraction of its capital on increasing the number of red-headed employees, and purports to be a place where you can voice your opinions about anything that's going wrong, etc., then you might consider discussing whether we as a company are spending too much much money and effort to hire more red-headed people, and that the net effect is bad whether your goal is diversity or performance. Almost anything can be thought of as indirectly questioning colleague's competence. Suppose I saw, "U. Waterloo is a great school, let's hire more people from there.", this is indirectly questioning the competence of anyone who's not from U. Waterloo. Suppose HR decides to offer employees free LASIK surgery, then they are questioning the competence of people who choose to wear glasses instead. Encouraging employees to use desk in stand-up mode questions the competence of people who prefer to work while sitting. The list is endless.
- Steeeve 9y agoSV is an oddly judgemental area. When people have unpopular opinions they tend to discuss them quietly. My wife doesn't work in tech, but she did lose a job over a post on a message board that didn't agree with her boss' politics. (She thought it was a waste of money to rename a school) I'm wide open with the co-workers that I'm close to (i.e. in my working group). I'm more reserved among others, and since I work for a large entity, I'm aware of the people that pose a political challenge and do my best not to piss them off. I know of a few people in tech who let the wrong words out and ended up losing jobs as an indirect result. (it wasn't "you said X, you're gone", it was more "he said X and a few weeks later - surprise surprise... he doesn't work here anymore") I haven't seen anything like that outside of the bay area and I've worked all over.
- stared 9y agoMy impression is that it is not only about topics, but also perceived intentions (and if you step, however unintentionally, on a trigger (of a landmine)). I wrote Dating for Nerds: Gender differences (http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differences.html http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differ...) and got no backlash (much to my surprise, though). From my experience nerds (and aspies in particular) talk mostly to exchange information (learn, share). Same questions are being understood by neurotypicals as expressing intentions, in a covert way. Nerd: I read that X, on the average, are less interested in tech. A non-nerd reads it as: I want to kick out all X from tech. / I consider X inferior. A non-nerd disagrees with the perceived intention and fights back, while a nerd perceives it as immunity to facts and unwillingness for a discussion. That said: - not all nerds are well-intentioned and open-minded - workplace is not a place for all possible talks (or other social activities); if it makes people feel bad, excluded or less productive - it may be an argument to keep such discussions outside of the workplace; in particular, workplace is not an evolutionary biology discussion club And BTW, from "Interpersonal Traits of Aspies Placed in Context": https://gist.github.com/stared/00ce50e95f9bcecc8965feb04650c19d https://gist.github.com/stared/00ce50e95f9bcecc8965feb04650c... see "Not Recognizing 'Yellow Light' Conditions" and even more: "Doesn't Apologize Readily".
- insickness 9y ago"A non-nerd reads it as: I want to kick out all X from tech. / I consider X inferior." I was out on an internet date with Scandinavian woman a few years ago. She was some type of sociological researcher, which interested me. I told her that part of the discrepancy in representation between genders in tech could be biologically oriented and she immediately said, "I don't want to hear arguments from biology!" She said it with the same tone and conviction you'd label someone a racist. It's as if once we allow these facts into the argument, it means we can say the fight for gender equality is finished, that whenever equality exists, we can all throw our hands up in the air and say, "It's biology!" I can see the danger but at the same time, the alternative--denying reality--is far more insidious.
- tarsinge 9y ago
- azinman2 9y agoThe lack of self-awareness in many of these comments is really quite shocking — Id say it’s probably better that they’re not typically expressed.
- geff82 9y agoInteresting thing is about gender and technology jobs. In „evil“ Iran, about 50% of students of computer science are women. Being a female software developer is common. Cousin of my wife is a programmer, another female friend of the family is a IBM mainframe programmer(now retired), my wife is an engineer with interest in computer science. So its not all about „brain structures“, it is about society. When Iran can do it, how will we westeners?
- cousin_it 9y agoI wonder what percentage of HN users would subscribe to this sentence for some values of X and Y: "I am worse at task X than person Y for genetic reasons."
- 4bpp 9y agoWhy not run a poll rather than speculate idly? (Of course, the interesting comparison is probably between the percentage that would say that with "better" and with "worse" respectively. You'd also want some restrictions on the set X is drawn from to prevent worthless positives from low-status values of X such as sports, social skills or rote memorisation)
- falcolas 9y agoWell, add one. "I am worse at interpersonal interactions than my brother-in-law for genetic reasons." I'd also say that this is actually very easy to say, since you can also pick out genetic anomalies: I could say the sentence about swimming and Michael Phelps, or running and Usain Bolt, without a single person being offended or disagreeing. If you want to make the sentence controversial, you need to replace "person Y" with "genetic group Y"; i.e. men, women, caucasians, blacks, asians, mongoloids, or so on.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- barry-cotter 9y agoI am worse at playing basketball than the average high school basketball player because I’m of average height, have poor hand eye coordination and a terrible vertical jump, all of which are largely genetic. I am worse at math than the average physics undergrad for genetic reasons, low conscientiousness and interest.
- GuiA 9y agoBoth sides feel oppressed! For example, some people think you can’t question diversity efforts; others think you can’t speak out about racism. Some think you can’t praise capitalism; others think you can’t suggest socialism. It’s theoretically possible that the Overton window could be in the middle and exclude both extremes, but to my mind it’s more likely that people just like to think or claim that their views are an oppressed minority. That’s the real insight here. You wanted a fully networked society, well that’s what comes with a fully networked society.
- pjc50 9y agoFor reference, a discussion of what you genuinely can't say in China: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=35663&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=35663&utm_source=dlv...
- hardlianotion 9y agoThe survey is not very big.
- korax 9y agoDoes anyone know of good research on how our ability to confront and discuss controversial matters has changed over the last 50 years? I am wondering whether previous generations were better able to handle intra- and intergroup differences of ideology.
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y agoThis one is interesting: > “Most successful entrepreneurs are simply lucky.” Probably it's because "common wisdom" says it's the result of being smart and hard work. But if luck plays such a big role (and let's be honest, it does - there are also studies confirming that), it's difficult to be proud of your success. Happy - yes. Proud? No more than a lottery winner. For many successful people this would be an insult.
- curun1r 9y agoThere's an old saying (IIRC, attributed to Seneca) that luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. I like that way of looking at things because it neither minimizes the work and insight that someone put into their success nor refuses to acknowledge that factors outside their control also contributed.
- thuris 9y agoAge discrimination did not make the list. Maybe the survey poster's audience is not affected by it or maybe it's not controversial to admit that it is common practice.
- ksec 9y agoSo what am I suppose to talk about if I went to US or Silicon Valley? Also wondering if this is just silicon valley or US in general? For those who have never been to US, and just reading news and watching TV on it, it surely is a place full of controversy. As a matter of fact, I am starting to see this isn't US only at all. It is the same with UK on certain issues ( Mainly Brexit ) but in typical Brit fashion they seems to be much more sensible about it when people disagree. What happens to the old days where we agree to disagree. Take it on the chin, put a smile on your face and walk away? This isn't just social media's echo chamber, a lot of people seems to want to blame them. But i think the social media only amplify the problem. Not the course of it.
- thomzi12 9y agoTo echo someone else's post, saying you work at [a boring tech company] working on [boring ideas] is what is truly taboo in Silicon Valley.