5 ms·

Actually, all the issues that you bring up are easy - being oblivious isn't a defense in any other aspect of the law and it shouldn't be for rape either. If yo

by s17n 9y ago

Actually, all the issues that you bring up are easy - being oblivious isn't a defense in any other aspect of the law and it shouldn't be for rape either. If you didn't realize that you didn't have consent, sucks to be you, but you should still suffer the consequences.

DoreenMichele 9y ago
I am not claiming it is a legal defense, just a reason why rich, powerful men pressure women into sex and then seem to genuinely think it was consensual. But I am not really speaking to "What do we do after the fact?" I am speaking more to "How does culture change so you see fewer rapes to begin with? How does culture change so fewer rich, powerful men are oblivious to the fact that their wealth and power can be a form of pressure for a woman they are pursuing?" I was raped at the age of 12. I have not been raped as an adult. I don't want to be raped ever again. I am not interested in fostering a culture that does a better job of throwing all the rapists in jail. I am interested in fostering a culture where people do a better job of negotiating consent so we don't have women feeling violated while the man who had sex with them is completely convinced she wanted it and she consented by failing to say no strongly enough.
- newfoundglory 9y ago
  Then why are you framing your comments about teaching women to avoid rape better as a response to the question of why the police and legal system don't currently do a good job at jailing rapists?
- phkahler 9y ago
  "powerful men are oblivious to the fact that their wealth and power can be a form of pressure for a woman they are pursuing?" Can you elaborate on that dynamic? Is it as simple as "women are drawn to men with money and power" which is what men think, or is there something more to it? How is it pressure? And BTW you are unusually honest about sexual dynamics in a way that most women are not IMHO. Thanks for that. Nobody is going to stop in the moment and sign written consent forms, and a woman who happened to have a drink or two will dump a guy who says "oh, I can't because you had a drink and people say that make you unable to consent." It's just not that clear cut in practice.
  - et-al 9y ago
    > Can you elaborate on that dynamic? Is it as simple as "women are drawn to men with money and power" which is what men think, or is there something more to it? How is it pressure? Not the other poster, I assume they are taking about inherent power dynamics in the workplace. So not two random people at a bar, but let's say an employee and a boss, or a boss's friend. In hopes of maintaining the status quo with their boss, the employee might comply. (I know HN is full of rebellious individuals who'd never acquiesce, but for a more commonplace example, think of happy hour functions where the boss buys everyone another round and there's the pressure to finish that shot.)
    - phkahler 9y ago
      Well yeah, that I totally understand. You don't get involved with people under/over you in an organization. Or teacher/student or anything where there is an existing power differential. That's just not right for the reasons given. Perhaps that's what she was talking about.
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        No, I wasn't really talking about that. I don't know how to elaborate. I have been trying to come up with a clear explanation. The best thing I can come up with is that somewhere I saw some video that said that white males are the only people in the US who seem to not know that when a cop stops you, you roll down your window and place your hands on the steering wheel at the 10 and 2 positions. Some white males will act like the cop is their friend and cops never see that from women and people of color. If you have so much power that no one wants to offend you, you may not realize you are surrounded by yes men. You may have gotten to where you are in your career by being very aggressive and not readily accepting no for an answer. You may not recognize that doing the same thing in romance is actually harassment. To you, it may be a normal form of negotiating. Pissing off a powerful man in your social circle can be very problematic. Most people don't want to do so, regardless of gender. And I think that's a poor explanation, but it is the best I can come up with right this minute.
- m_mueller 9y ago
  > powerful men pressure women into sex and then seem to genuinely think it was consensual So, does it solve the problem if it became a rule that men in more powerful positions (but with no direct business relationship) should wait for a woman to pursue them? Or should people only ever date at the same power level? If the answer to the first is yes, wouldn't it help quite a bit if it became the norm for women to do the first move, or at least to so around half the times? There are cultures where this it the norm, but I can't comment on whether their dating life is 'healthier' or whether there is less sexual assault there. I reckon it would be an interesting, albeit very difficult to control for, social study.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    My preferred solution is that we reduce the baseline power differential between the sexes. How we get there, I don't know. But I doubt there is some easy answer here. If powerful men cannot ask, how do they weed out women who are pursuing them solely for their money? Being rich and powerful does not make them invulnerable. It does not mean they have no Achilles heel. I'm a fairly traditionally feminine woman who does not like initiating. I have figured out how to navigate traditional gender dynamics comfortably. If you are asking, then I have the power here. You have to meet my expectations to get a yes. My perspective is very underrepresented and hard to talk about. It is fairly socially unacceptable for me to try to talk about certain things. This has left me with few opportunities to practice communicating effectively on those topics, which just about guarantees that I won't say it very well. Given that it isn't acceptable to say to begin with, saying it poorly tends to lead to drama.
palunon 9y ago
> being oblivious isn't a defense in any other aspect of the law I am not an expert in US law, but doesn't intent to commit a crime matters ? Which is why there is a difference between murdering someone and taking actions that ultimately lead to someone death ? In France (civil system, I know), we for example have "murder" and "violence that lead to death without intent to cause it" (and "involuntary homicide", etc)
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  You aren't wrong, but neither is the GP. In the US, we have the legal rubric that "ignorance of the law is no defense." But, yes, intent matters and we make distinctions in the US between premeditated murder, crimes of passion and accidentally killing someone (manslaughter). Law is complicated stuff.
  - blattimwind 9y ago
    "ignorance of the law is no defense." that sounds a lot like ignorantia legis non excusat, i.e. just because you didn't know that X is punishable by law does not mean you will not get punished. That's different from not knowing or recognizing the preconditions of a crime.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      That sounds about right. My understanding is the standard is in place to avoid giving all first time offenders a free pass and to also actively encourage people to look up laws pertinent to their lives. If it weren't in place, then willful ignorance would be in your best interest. Since it is in place, it is in your best interest to go find out what is and is not legal when, for example, starting a business.
lrem 9y ago
Have you ever had sex without signing two copies of a sexual intercourse consent form?

by s17n 9y ago

DoreenMichele 9y ago

I am not claiming it is a legal defense, just a reason why rich, powerful men pressure women into sex and then seem to genuinely think it was consensual. But I am not really speaking to "What do we do after the fact?" I am speaking more to "How does culture change so you see fewer rapes to begin with? How does culture change so fewer rich, powerful men are oblivious to the fact that their wealth and power can be a form of pressure for a woman they are pursuing?" I was raped at the age of 12. I have not been raped as an adult. I don't want to be raped ever again. I am not interested in fostering a culture that does a better job of throwing all the rapists in jail. I am interested in fostering a culture where people do a better job of negotiating consent so we don't have women feeling violated while the man who had sex with them is completely convinced she wanted it and she consented by failing to say no strongly enough.

newfoundglory 9y ago
Then why are you framing your comments about teaching women to avoid rape better as a response to the question of why the police and legal system don't currently do a good job at jailing rapists?
phkahler 9y ago
"powerful men are oblivious to the fact that their wealth and power can be a form of pressure for a woman they are pursuing?" Can you elaborate on that dynamic? Is it as simple as "women are drawn to men with money and power" which is what men think, or is there something more to it? How is it pressure? And BTW you are unusually honest about sexual dynamics in a way that most women are not IMHO. Thanks for that. Nobody is going to stop in the moment and sign written consent forms, and a woman who happened to have a drink or two will dump a guy who says "oh, I can't because you had a drink and people say that make you unable to consent." It's just not that clear cut in practice.
- et-al 9y ago
  > Can you elaborate on that dynamic? Is it as simple as "women are drawn to men with money and power" which is what men think, or is there something more to it? How is it pressure? Not the other poster, I assume they are taking about inherent power dynamics in the workplace. So not two random people at a bar, but let's say an employee and a boss, or a boss's friend. In hopes of maintaining the status quo with their boss, the employee might comply. (I know HN is full of rebellious individuals who'd never acquiesce, but for a more commonplace example, think of happy hour functions where the boss buys everyone another round and there's the pressure to finish that shot.)
  - phkahler 9y ago
    Well yeah, that I totally understand. You don't get involved with people under/over you in an organization. Or teacher/student or anything where there is an existing power differential. That's just not right for the reasons given. Perhaps that's what she was talking about.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      No, I wasn't really talking about that. I don't know how to elaborate. I have been trying to come up with a clear explanation. The best thing I can come up with is that somewhere I saw some video that said that white males are the only people in the US who seem to not know that when a cop stops you, you roll down your window and place your hands on the steering wheel at the 10 and 2 positions. Some white males will act like the cop is their friend and cops never see that from women and people of color. If you have so much power that no one wants to offend you, you may not realize you are surrounded by yes men. You may have gotten to where you are in your career by being very aggressive and not readily accepting no for an answer. You may not recognize that doing the same thing in romance is actually harassment. To you, it may be a normal form of negotiating. Pissing off a powerful man in your social circle can be very problematic. Most people don't want to do so, regardless of gender. And I think that's a poor explanation, but it is the best I can come up with right this minute.
m_mueller 9y ago
> powerful men pressure women into sex and then seem to genuinely think it was consensual So, does it solve the problem if it became a rule that men in more powerful positions (but with no direct business relationship) should wait for a woman to pursue them? Or should people only ever date at the same power level? If the answer to the first is yes, wouldn't it help quite a bit if it became the norm for women to do the first move, or at least to so around half the times? There are cultures where this it the norm, but I can't comment on whether their dating life is 'healthier' or whether there is less sexual assault there. I reckon it would be an interesting, albeit very difficult to control for, social study.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  My preferred solution is that we reduce the baseline power differential between the sexes. How we get there, I don't know. But I doubt there is some easy answer here. If powerful men cannot ask, how do they weed out women who are pursuing them solely for their money? Being rich and powerful does not make them invulnerable. It does not mean they have no Achilles heel. I'm a fairly traditionally feminine woman who does not like initiating. I have figured out how to navigate traditional gender dynamics comfortably. If you are asking, then I have the power here. You have to meet my expectations to get a yes. My perspective is very underrepresented and hard to talk about. It is fairly socially unacceptable for me to try to talk about certain things. This has left me with few opportunities to practice communicating effectively on those topics, which just about guarantees that I won't say it very well. Given that it isn't acceptable to say to begin with, saying it poorly tends to lead to drama.

palunon 9y ago

> being oblivious isn't a defense in any other aspect of the law I am not an expert in US law, but doesn't intent to commit a crime matters ? Which is why there is a difference between murdering someone and taking actions that ultimately lead to someone death ? In France (civil system, I know), we for example have "murder" and "violence that lead to death without intent to cause it" (and "involuntary homicide", etc)

DoreenMichele 9y ago
You aren't wrong, but neither is the GP. In the US, we have the legal rubric that "ignorance of the law is no defense." But, yes, intent matters and we make distinctions in the US between premeditated murder, crimes of passion and accidentally killing someone (manslaughter). Law is complicated stuff.
- blattimwind 9y ago
  "ignorance of the law is no defense." that sounds a lot like ignorantia legis non excusat, i.e. just because you didn't know that X is punishable by law does not mean you will not get punished. That's different from not knowing or recognizing the preconditions of a crime.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    That sounds about right. My understanding is the standard is in place to avoid giving all first time offenders a free pass and to also actively encourage people to look up laws pertinent to their lives. If it weren't in place, then willful ignorance would be in your best interest. Since it is in place, it is in your best interest to go find out what is and is not legal when, for example, starting a business.

lrem 9y ago

Have you ever had sex without signing two copies of a sexual intercourse consent form?