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Not true at all. The amount of goods produced by people in jail is a negligible part of the economy. Prisoners do work, sure, but that's to pass the time. We i

Not true at all. The amount of goods produced by people in jail is a negligible part of the economy. Prisoners do work, sure, but that's to pass the time. We imprison far too many people in the US for minor drug offences, but it's definitely not in order to reintroduce slavery...

Cookiesaurusbex 9y ago
Prisoners in California are being used as firefighters. It's not an easy or safe job and I'm pretty sure they aren't doing it just to pass time.
- Zak 9y ago
  A quick search reveals that all of the inmates doing that job are volunteers. They get to spend time outside prison and interact with people who aren't prisoners or guards. I could imagine volunteering for that if I was a prisoner. That doesn't make using prisoners as cheap labor OK, especially for dangerous jobs, but it doesn't surprise me at all that prisoners would rather do that than sit in a cell.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >A quick search reveals that all of the inmates doing that job are volunteers. It's easy to make volunteers out of people if: 1) Their living conditions are so bad in your hellish prisons that that most alternatives seem like heaven. 2) you control their living conditions and can make their life hell if you want to "motivate" them to volunteer. 3) A crappy legal system hands them some of the harshest terms in the world in some of the more BS prisons, and having them volunteer for such work can give them more "points" towards getting our earlier. What I'm getting at is, volunteering for an inmate is not necessarily the same thing as volunteering is for a free man -- or even the same thing as a prisoner in a place without medieval prison conditions and vindictive attitude towards prisoners volunteering.
    - ficklepickle 9y ago
      I'd tend to agree. I mean, if I was locked in a cage first, I'd likely be more willing to agree to something, anything, that gets me out of that cage. Whether that is good, bad or indifferent is a whole different matter, but I think it is safe to say that it is a thing.
  - fwn 9y ago
    Surely there is no power relation stacked against prisoners that might lead to any suspicion regarding their consent.
thatcat 9y ago
If you force people to work for a few cents an hour, that will always be a negligable part of the economy.
- mlazos 9y ago
  I don’t see your logic here. Slaves worked for free and were a huge part of the economy. Wages are not the only part of the equation.
  - thatcat 9y ago
    The meterics that account for economic activity will place a very low one on labor with a very low hourly rate. AFAIK, Slaves would be categorized as capital expense, which is different than labor and would use a different measure for economic output.
    - cglace 9y ago
      Who cares how you classify the expense. They are talking about what percent of goods/services in our economy come from prisoners. It's negligible. When slavery was a thing It was not negligible. It made up a good portion of the southern economy.
      - thatcat 9y ago
        How do you quantify the goods and services that come from prisoners? It's not like they're stamped with (made in prison), but more likely would be marketed as (made in US).
        cglace 9y ago
        Are you honestly suggesting that a large percentage of goods/services in the US are provided by prisoners or are you just arguing for arguments sake? I doubt 1 in a million products are made by prisoners.
jocro 9y ago
I don't think anyone is saying that prison labor is in any way reintroducing the economic impact of 18-19th century slave trade. But, as a country, the US: 1) Incarcerates people at a higher rate than any country besides Seychelles 2) Abolished slavery for all persons except prisoners: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted..." Between local, state, and federal prisons, we're looking at roughly 500,000 imprisoned for drug-related offenses[1]. Yes, the labor of these people is a trivial portion of the overall economy, but it still produces huge profit for those running the show: CoreCivic has a market cap of ~$2.6 billion. They exist to extract value from the lives and labors of the people who their institutions keep under lock and key. There is a direct incentive for these corporations to increase the number of prisoners in the system, and they leverage their power to pursue that incentive, lobbying for and even drafting legislation that enforces three strike and mandatory minimum rules.[2] They are actively pushing governments to imprison more people, and profiting from the resulting state sanctioned slavery. [1] https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2017.png https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2017.png [2] https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2016/aug/22/study-shows-private-prison-companies-use-influence-increase-incarceration/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2016/aug/22/study-shows...
coldtea 9y ago
>Not true at all. The amount of goods produced by people in jail is a negligible part of the economy. It's still a hugely profitable business on its own for those involved, so that comparison is kind of beyond the point. Pimps profits also make for "a negligible part of the economy" but their profession is a thing. >Prisoners do work, sure, but that's to pass the time. If only. https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-prisoners-roast-potatoes-kentucky-they-sell-cattle-prison-labour https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/16/us-prisons-jail-private-healthcare-companies-profit https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/16/us-prisons-j...

Cookiesaurusbex 9y ago

Prisoners in California are being used as firefighters. It's not an easy or safe job and I'm pretty sure they aren't doing it just to pass time.

Zak 9y ago
A quick search reveals that all of the inmates doing that job are volunteers. They get to spend time outside prison and interact with people who aren't prisoners or guards. I could imagine volunteering for that if I was a prisoner. That doesn't make using prisoners as cheap labor OK, especially for dangerous jobs, but it doesn't surprise me at all that prisoners would rather do that than sit in a cell.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >A quick search reveals that all of the inmates doing that job are volunteers. It's easy to make volunteers out of people if: 1) Their living conditions are so bad in your hellish prisons that that most alternatives seem like heaven. 2) you control their living conditions and can make their life hell if you want to "motivate" them to volunteer. 3) A crappy legal system hands them some of the harshest terms in the world in some of the more BS prisons, and having them volunteer for such work can give them more "points" towards getting our earlier. What I'm getting at is, volunteering for an inmate is not necessarily the same thing as volunteering is for a free man -- or even the same thing as a prisoner in a place without medieval prison conditions and vindictive attitude towards prisoners volunteering.
  - ficklepickle 9y ago
    I'd tend to agree. I mean, if I was locked in a cage first, I'd likely be more willing to agree to something, anything, that gets me out of that cage. Whether that is good, bad or indifferent is a whole different matter, but I think it is safe to say that it is a thing.
- fwn 9y ago
  Surely there is no power relation stacked against prisoners that might lead to any suspicion regarding their consent.

thatcat 9y ago

If you force people to work for a few cents an hour, that will always be a negligable part of the economy.

mlazos 9y ago
I don’t see your logic here. Slaves worked for free and were a huge part of the economy. Wages are not the only part of the equation.
- thatcat 9y ago
  The meterics that account for economic activity will place a very low one on labor with a very low hourly rate. AFAIK, Slaves would be categorized as capital expense, which is different than labor and would use a different measure for economic output.
  - cglace 9y ago
    Who cares how you classify the expense. They are talking about what percent of goods/services in our economy come from prisoners. It's negligible. When slavery was a thing It was not negligible. It made up a good portion of the southern economy.
    - thatcat 9y ago
      How do you quantify the goods and services that come from prisoners? It's not like they're stamped with (made in prison), but more likely would be marketed as (made in US).
      - cglace 9y ago
        Are you honestly suggesting that a large percentage of goods/services in the US are provided by prisoners or are you just arguing for arguments sake? I doubt 1 in a million products are made by prisoners.

jocro 9y ago

I don't think anyone is saying that prison labor is in any way reintroducing the economic impact of 18-19th century slave trade. But, as a country, the US: 1) Incarcerates people at a higher rate than any country besides Seychelles 2) Abolished slavery for all persons except prisoners: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted..." Between local, state, and federal prisons, we're looking at roughly 500,000 imprisoned for drug-related offenses[1]. Yes, the labor of these people is a trivial portion of the overall economy, but it still produces huge profit for those running the show: CoreCivic has a market cap of ~$2.6 billion. They exist to extract value from the lives and labors of the people who their institutions keep under lock and key. There is a direct incentive for these corporations to increase the number of prisoners in the system, and they leverage their power to pursue that incentive, lobbying for and even drafting legislation that enforces three strike and mandatory minimum rules.[2] They are actively pushing governments to imprison more people, and profiting from the resulting state sanctioned slavery. [1] https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2017.png https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2017.png [2] https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2016/aug/22/study-shows-private-prison-companies-use-influence-increase-incarceration/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2016/aug/22/study-shows...

coldtea 9y ago

>Not true at all. The amount of goods produced by people in jail is a negligible part of the economy. It's still a hugely profitable business on its own for those involved, so that comparison is kind of beyond the point. Pimps profits also make for "a negligible part of the economy" but their profession is a thing. >Prisoners do work, sure, but that's to pass the time. If only. https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-prisoners-roast-potatoes-kentucky-they-sell-cattle-prison-labour https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21718897-idaho-... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/16/us-prisons-jail-private-healthcare-companies-profit https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/16/us-prisons-j...