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Playing devils advocate: Why should I hire anyone who is accused of rape when I do my background check? Why should anyone else hire such people?

bufferoverflow 9y ago
Because anybody can accuse anyone of anything. Look: aperrien raped my sister today. Why should anybody hire you or work for you now?
- rosser 9y ago
  False rape accusations are a crime. Specious examples of false accusations are a cheap debating tactic. Literally, that is a textbook straw-man.
  - bufferoverflow 9y ago
    Yeah, but that's what we're discussing. How do you tell if the allegation is true? I propose due process, evidence, trials. What do you propose?
    - rosser 9y ago
      > What do you propose? For starters, a justice system and ideological climate that isn't predisposed to discount women's lived experience of harassment and assault.
      - bufferoverflow 9y ago
        What does that mean specifically? Women can already press charges when they accuse someone. The problem is, many women don't. I see no evidence of women not being allowed to press charges on a mass scale. I understand it's a traumatic experience, but so is all of violent crimes.
        rosser 9y ago
        > What does that mean specifically? I'm talking about a climate where when a woman claims she's being harassed, the response is to credit the (stated) intent of the person allegedly harassing her ("I was just flirting" or "Can't you take a joke?") over her experience. I don't think it matters what your intent was. If you're making someone — anyone — uncomfortable, that's on you; it's your behavior that caused the discomfort. Or, when a woman actually does press charges for a rape, the way it generally works out, there's substantial burden-of-proof placed upon her to substantiate her own experience. Yes, even — especially — from the police and prosecution, whose jobs it literally is to do that for her. > The problem is, many women don't. Given the above, and the underlying attitudes that give rise to it, can you blame them? We have a profoundly shitty attitude, as a culture, regarding women and their sexual agency, and the way we treat rape is only a sliver of that.
        rectang 9y ago
        > I see no evidence of women not being allowed to press charges on a mass scale. Just scratching the surface, consider the massive, systemic backlog of untested rape kits in the US. Women aren't legally prevented from pressing charges by this maddening lack of cooperation, but in practice many rape cases go unprosecuted because of police indifference or hostility.
- stale2002 9y ago
  I can accuse someone of being an asshole, and that we shouldn't hire him because of that. How come nobody freaks out over THAT? Saying "this person is unpleasant to work with, ND we shouldn't hire them" wouldn't make anyone bat an eye...
  - bufferoverflow 9y ago
    Nobody is freaking out about anything. We're talking about due process. Being an asshole isn't a crime, rape is a pretty bad one. Assholes get hired all the time, even when it's known. Ever read Linus's emails? Yet I'd work with him in a heartbeat.
    - stale2002 9y ago
      But my point is that I can already take away someone's due process. I say "this person is awful to work with. Don't hire them". And they won't get hired, 99% percent of the time. And I can do all of this in my word alone, without and judge jury or trial. Society already says that this is ok in hiring. Nobody is going to go around saying "you can't accuse someone of that and prevent them from being hired! That is he said she said!".
- dang 9y ago
  > Look: aperrien raped my sister today. Ugh. This was a nasty flamewar already—the kind of thing this site is not for. Please don't take things even closer to the bottom of the barrel.

bufferoverflow 9y ago

Because anybody can accuse anyone of anything. Look: aperrien raped my sister today. Why should anybody hire you or work for you now?

rosser 9y ago
False rape accusations are a crime. Specious examples of false accusations are a cheap debating tactic. Literally, that is a textbook straw-man.
- bufferoverflow 9y ago
  Yeah, but that's what we're discussing. How do you tell if the allegation is true? I propose due process, evidence, trials. What do you propose?
  - rosser 9y ago
    > What do you propose? For starters, a justice system and ideological climate that isn't predisposed to discount women's lived experience of harassment and assault.
    - bufferoverflow 9y ago
      What does that mean specifically? Women can already press charges when they accuse someone. The problem is, many women don't. I see no evidence of women not being allowed to press charges on a mass scale. I understand it's a traumatic experience, but so is all of violent crimes.
      - rosser 9y ago
        > What does that mean specifically? I'm talking about a climate where when a woman claims she's being harassed, the response is to credit the (stated) intent of the person allegedly harassing her ("I was just flirting" or "Can't you take a joke?") over her experience. I don't think it matters what your intent was. If you're making someone — anyone — uncomfortable, that's on you; it's your behavior that caused the discomfort. Or, when a woman actually does press charges for a rape, the way it generally works out, there's substantial burden-of-proof placed upon her to substantiate her own experience. Yes, even — especially — from the police and prosecution, whose jobs it literally is to do that for her. > The problem is, many women don't. Given the above, and the underlying attitudes that give rise to it, can you blame them? We have a profoundly shitty attitude, as a culture, regarding women and their sexual agency, and the way we treat rape is only a sliver of that.
      - rectang 9y ago
        > I see no evidence of women not being allowed to press charges on a mass scale. Just scratching the surface, consider the massive, systemic backlog of untested rape kits in the US. Women aren't legally prevented from pressing charges by this maddening lack of cooperation, but in practice many rape cases go unprosecuted because of police indifference or hostility.
stale2002 9y ago
I can accuse someone of being an asshole, and that we shouldn't hire him because of that. How come nobody freaks out over THAT? Saying "this person is unpleasant to work with, ND we shouldn't hire them" wouldn't make anyone bat an eye...
- bufferoverflow 9y ago
  Nobody is freaking out about anything. We're talking about due process. Being an asshole isn't a crime, rape is a pretty bad one. Assholes get hired all the time, even when it's known. Ever read Linus's emails? Yet I'd work with him in a heartbeat.
  - stale2002 9y ago
    But my point is that I can already take away someone's due process. I say "this person is awful to work with. Don't hire them". And they won't get hired, 99% percent of the time. And I can do all of this in my word alone, without and judge jury or trial. Society already says that this is ok in hiring. Nobody is going to go around saying "you can't accuse someone of that and prevent them from being hired! That is he said she said!".
dang 9y ago
> Look: aperrien raped my sister today. Ugh. This was a nasty flamewar already—the kind of thing this site is not for. Please don't take things even closer to the bottom of the barrel.