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What if I allege you raped me? Should you be unemployed for life now? Due process is important. Raped women should press charges, there should be an investiga

What if I allege you raped me? Should you be unemployed for life now? Due process is important. Raped women should press charges, there should be an investigation, the trial, and prison time.

rayiner 9y ago
Due process is what’s required to take away someone’s liberty, not to deny a job. When my boss asks me “hey, what do you think of Jim?” I can say “we can’t hire him, he was a huge asshole to everyone in school and I think he’s untrustworthy.” I can do that, and we’ll not hire Jim, and I won’t even have to submit a notarized official statement.
- bufferoverflow 9y ago
  You can say that, but if he finds out, you can get sued for defamation. That's why most companies, when you ask for a reference, will not say anything beyond your dates of employment and maybe the names of the projects you were working on.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    In reality, the majority of destructive rumors take the form of "Bob was impossible to work with", not "Bob sexually assaulted Avery". Meanwhile: a bogus accusation of rape is far more actionable than a bogus accusation of being an asshole; if you actually worked with Bob at all, you probably can't be sued for that at all, since things that can be construed as opinions cannot be the basis of a valid defamation claim. Unlike sexual assault, which, as a crime, is probably defamatory per se. So relative to the set of all possible destruct rumors, allegations of sexual assault stand as outliers for how uniquely protected the accused actually are.
- roenxi 9y ago
  The companies can hire whoever they want however they want within the law. They certainly could not hire this bloke. However, if they want to hire someone who only has accusations against him, I don't see the problem. Businesses can and do hire full-fledged known criminals (typically after they've paid their legal penalty); and this is better for us all then having them uselessly sitting around. Many of them will still be perfectly good workers. Having done something illegal doesn't mean getting ejected from society; being accused certainly doesn't.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- skookumchuck 9y ago
  Slander - "Some statements such as an untrue accusation of having committed a crime, having a loathsome disease, or being unable to perform one's occupation are treated as slander per se since the harm and malice are obvious," https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/slander https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/slander
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    To be slander it would have to be provably false, not to simply be something that they can't prove to be true.
    - skookumchuck 9y ago
      When a suspect is arrested for murder, the newspaper uses the words "suspect" and "alleged" in order to avoid slander lawsuits.
pjc50 9y ago
Be careful: at the moment, making a rape allegation can make you unemployable. http://variety.com/2017/film/news/ashley-judd-mira-sorvino-weinstein-blacklist-peter-jackson-1202642211/ http://variety.com/2017/film/news/ashley-judd-mira-sorvino-w...
- bufferoverflow 9y ago
  And that's wrong.
- kgwgk 9y ago
  Making a rape allegation can make you unemployable 20 years in the past? I don’t think causality works this way. Edit: In case it’s not clear, the link talks about how Weinstein used his influence to harm the careers of Sorvino and Judd (in 1998) after they rejected him (in 1995 and 1997). The accusations of sexual harassment (not rape) have been made in 2017. How does one conclude that making rape allegations can make you unemployable?
- peak_body_yo 9y ago
  Apparently not in tech though. All the recent sexual harassment accusers are employed
rosser 9y ago
This ignores the myriad ways that rape victims are further traumatized by the very due process you're demanding they subject themselves to (note: "subject themselves to", not "avail themselves of"): police, prosecutors, and defense counsel all casting various kinds of doubt on her version of events; having to bare a profoundly vulnerable experience to the world; being accused by looky-lous, her own acquaintances, "friends", and family, and people with all kinds of agendas of having made it up in the first place. Pressing charges and seeing the process through is often reported as being a significant re-traumatization — sometimes even worse than the assault, itself. It also ignores the fact that "hiring decisions" aren't subject to due process — and that "unemployed for life" is specious hyperbole. EDIT: Down-voters, assume an actual rape occurred. Please convince me of how it's incumbent upon the person that was raped to subject herself to all of that, just to be "fair" to the job prospects of her rapist. If the statistics are anything to go by, he's overwhelmingly likely to be acquitted, anyway.
- aperrien 9y ago
  Playing devils advocate: Why should I hire anyone who is accused of rape when I do my background check? Why should anyone else hire such people?
  - bufferoverflow 9y ago
    Because anybody can accuse anyone of anything. Look: aperrien raped my sister today. Why should anybody hire you or work for you now?
    - rosser 9y ago
      False rape accusations are a crime. Specious examples of false accusations are a cheap debating tactic. Literally, that is a textbook straw-man.
      - bufferoverflow 9y ago
        Yeah, but that's what we're discussing. How do you tell if the allegation is true? I propose due process, evidence, trials. What do you propose?
urahara 9y ago
And if the proper process for effectively addressing rape on a legal level is not in place yet, you suggest just to do nothing about it on any other level, great.
- bufferoverflow 9y ago
  What specific legal improvements are you proposing?
UncleMeat 9y ago
Would you really do that? Are you that evil of a person?

What if I allege you raped me? Should you be unemployed for life now? Due process is important. Raped women should press charges, there should be an investigation, the trial, and prison time.

rayiner 9y ago

Due process is what’s required to take away someone’s liberty, not to deny a job. When my boss asks me “hey, what do you think of Jim?” I can say “we can’t hire him, he was a huge asshole to everyone in school and I think he’s untrustworthy.” I can do that, and we’ll not hire Jim, and I won’t even have to submit a notarized official statement.

bufferoverflow 9y ago
You can say that, but if he finds out, you can get sued for defamation. That's why most companies, when you ask for a reference, will not say anything beyond your dates of employment and maybe the names of the projects you were working on.
- tptacek 9y ago
  In reality, the majority of destructive rumors take the form of "Bob was impossible to work with", not "Bob sexually assaulted Avery". Meanwhile: a bogus accusation of rape is far more actionable than a bogus accusation of being an asshole; if you actually worked with Bob at all, you probably can't be sued for that at all, since things that can be construed as opinions cannot be the basis of a valid defamation claim. Unlike sexual assault, which, as a crime, is probably defamatory per se. So relative to the set of all possible destruct rumors, allegations of sexual assault stand as outliers for how uniquely protected the accused actually are.
roenxi 9y ago
The companies can hire whoever they want however they want within the law. They certainly could not hire this bloke. However, if they want to hire someone who only has accusations against him, I don't see the problem. Businesses can and do hire full-fledged known criminals (typically after they've paid their legal penalty); and this is better for us all then having them uselessly sitting around. Many of them will still be perfectly good workers. Having done something illegal doesn't mean getting ejected from society; being accused certainly doesn't.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
skookumchuck 9y ago
Slander - "Some statements such as an untrue accusation of having committed a crime, having a loathsome disease, or being unable to perform one's occupation are treated as slander per se since the harm and malice are obvious," https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/slander https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/slander
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  To be slander it would have to be provably false, not to simply be something that they can't prove to be true.
  - skookumchuck 9y ago
    When a suspect is arrested for murder, the newspaper uses the words "suspect" and "alleged" in order to avoid slander lawsuits.

pjc50 9y ago

Be careful: at the moment, making a rape allegation can make you unemployable. http://variety.com/2017/film/news/ashley-judd-mira-sorvino-weinstein-blacklist-peter-jackson-1202642211/ http://variety.com/2017/film/news/ashley-judd-mira-sorvino-w...

bufferoverflow 9y ago
And that's wrong.
kgwgk 9y ago
Making a rape allegation can make you unemployable 20 years in the past? I don’t think causality works this way. Edit: In case it’s not clear, the link talks about how Weinstein used his influence to harm the careers of Sorvino and Judd (in 1998) after they rejected him (in 1995 and 1997). The accusations of sexual harassment (not rape) have been made in 2017. How does one conclude that making rape allegations can make you unemployable?
peak_body_yo 9y ago
Apparently not in tech though. All the recent sexual harassment accusers are employed

rosser 9y ago

This ignores the myriad ways that rape victims are further traumatized by the very due process you're demanding they subject themselves to (note: "subject themselves to", not "avail themselves of"): police, prosecutors, and defense counsel all casting various kinds of doubt on her version of events; having to bare a profoundly vulnerable experience to the world; being accused by looky-lous, her own acquaintances, "friends", and family, and people with all kinds of agendas of having made it up in the first place. Pressing charges and seeing the process through is often reported as being a significant re-traumatization — sometimes even worse than the assault, itself. It also ignores the fact that "hiring decisions" aren't subject to due process — and that "unemployed for life" is specious hyperbole. EDIT: Down-voters, assume an actual rape occurred. Please convince me of how it's incumbent upon the person that was raped to subject herself to all of that, just to be "fair" to the job prospects of her rapist. If the statistics are anything to go by, he's overwhelmingly likely to be acquitted, anyway.

aperrien 9y ago
Playing devils advocate: Why should I hire anyone who is accused of rape when I do my background check? Why should anyone else hire such people?
- bufferoverflow 9y ago
  Because anybody can accuse anyone of anything. Look: aperrien raped my sister today. Why should anybody hire you or work for you now?
  - rosser 9y ago
    False rape accusations are a crime. Specious examples of false accusations are a cheap debating tactic. Literally, that is a textbook straw-man.
    - bufferoverflow 9y ago
      Yeah, but that's what we're discussing. How do you tell if the allegation is true? I propose due process, evidence, trials. What do you propose?

urahara 9y ago

And if the proper process for effectively addressing rape on a legal level is not in place yet, you suggest just to do nothing about it on any other level, great.

bufferoverflow 9y ago
What specific legal improvements are you proposing?

UncleMeat 9y ago

Would you really do that? Are you that evil of a person?