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Two questions, for anyone that cares engage in free discussion of ideas: If someone were to make a disparaging remark about Christians, in general, in their wo

Two questions, for anyone that cares engage in free discussion of ideas: If someone were to make a disparaging remark about Christians, in general, in their workplace, should they be punished or fired for it? If someone were to make a disparaging remark about Muslims, in general, in their workplace, should they be punished or fired for it?

Avshalom 9y ago
Context matters and specifics matter. There aren't a lot of useful conclusions we can come to from willfully abstract discussions of messy realities.
- throwaway0255 9y ago
  I disagree. The only variable he changed between the two options was the religion involved, so we can have that discussion. Disparaging Christianity would be mostly acceptable and would receive a warning at most. I've personally witnessed this, no problems. I think disparaging Islam would instantly earn you a reputation that you would never shake during your entire time at the company, you would 100% receive a warning at the very least, and depending on your coworkers, might be outright fired. If you weren't fired, you'd live the rest of your days at the company as a pariah. That all seems self-evident to me, and I find that pretty interesting. Why is discussing it off-limits?
  - Avshalom 9y ago
    "in general" covers all changes of all variables.
    - rhapsodic 9y ago
      >"in general" covers all changes of all variables. What I meant when I wrote "in general" was "as a group." For example, Anil Dash, CEO of Fog Creek Software, makes a blanket statement about Christians in this tweet: https://twitter.com/anildash/status/928815535206424576 https://twitter.com/anildash/status/928815535206424576 "No other religion’s followers in America insist on every public official being of their faith." That is a statement, not about a specific individual or group of Christians, but Christians in general. And it's offensive and ridiculous. I know many Christians, but not one of whom for which that statement holds true. Well, I suppose it could be true for some, but most, I know for a fact, it's not. It's like someone saying "Jews are cheap." It's a blanket statement that I think is offensive and ridiculous. However, I've had Jewish relatives who were, in fact, the cheapest people I've ever known, beyond caricature, and I said that about them, in particular, on more than one occasion.
cdoxsey 9y ago
As a Christian, I would say, in general, no they should not be punished or fired for it. Occasionally people say things I find offensive, but its usually unintentional or, at the least, impersonal. A lot of engineers are very secular and have quite negative views of traditional religion, views they're more than willing to express at the drop of a hat, not realizing that religious folk live and work among them. If things are said in an aggressive or confrontational and personal way, or, worse, specific actions are taken (being overlooked for a promotion, humiliated by a superior, forced to take part in objectionable behavior, etc), then that crosses the line, and seems much more objectionable, but even then, its not really the content of the speech so much, but the purpose and motivation behind it. To be honest I would probably not make a complaint, just put up with it, or simply find a new job. In general, I think we should aim to avoid offending people needlessly, but also to avoid taking offense. I've put my foot in my mouth all too often, so showing others a bit of grace seems appropriate.
guptaneil 9y ago
The short answer to both is yes. The longer answer is messier and depends on context and various factors, but I understand the point you’re trying to get at so I’ll address that. I’m sure you’ve seen this cartoon before about equality vs fairness: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*8GivwZy2RijgvaGrySAyAw.png https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*8GivwZy2RijgvaGryS... Answering yes or no to both questions would be equal but not necessarily fair. That’s because as a Christian, you enjoy the benefit of being the majority religion (assuming you’re in the US). You get a break on your holidays, nobody questions your traditions, and nobody really disparages you. As a Muslim, you have to work on your holidays, you have to hide your traditions to fit in with the Christian norms, you deal with strangers assuming you’re a terrorist and getting kicked off airplanes, or having your resume ignored because of your name. These disadvantages compound quickly even if each one individually may not seem like a big deal. So when a coworker disparages you further in the office, it should be dealt with more concretely. In business terms, it’s similar to why it was ok for Apple to make fun of Microsoft in the early 2000’s but would be frowned upon now. It’s ok to punch upwards but don’t kick down.
- rhapsodic 9y ago
  >That’s because as a Christian, you enjoy the benefit of being the majority religion (assuming you’re in the US). You get a break on your holidays, nobody questions your traditions, and nobody really disparages you. If that's your perception, you can't possibly have spent any significant time in the USA in the past 30 years. For at least that amount of time, Christians, and Christianity in general, have been openly mocked, disparaged and insulted in popular culture, university classrooms, in casual conversation, and all over the internet. (I'm OK with that, FTR.) For as long as I've been old enough to pay attention, it has essentially been open season on Christians in the US. Among the left-wing, educated class, there is virtually no social penalty for insulting Christians or their beliefs. Quite the opposite, in fact. It’s ok to punch upwards but don’t kick down. That's just an arbitrary rule, made up by you. I suspect it's because you want to maintain the status quo I described above, while keeping any public criticism of Muslims a very risky endeavor.
Grue3 9y ago
No, to both. Religion is a choice (in free countries, at least) and does not require special protection. It's no different than saying disparaging remarks about Republicans or Democrats.
sctb 9y ago
Would you mind not posting blatantly off-topic religious flamebait? > Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- rhapsodic 9y ago
  Sorry, this was not intended as religious flamebait. It was to illustrate a point that is, I believe, quite pertinant to the issue sama is discussing. And I think it's worth noting that the discussion it engendered was completely civil by all participants, which is what I was hoping for, rather than getting flamed. But I'll defer to your judgement, and not respond again on this thread.

Avshalom 9y ago

Context matters and specifics matter. There aren't a lot of useful conclusions we can come to from willfully abstract discussions of messy realities.

throwaway0255 9y ago
I disagree. The only variable he changed between the two options was the religion involved, so we can have that discussion. Disparaging Christianity would be mostly acceptable and would receive a warning at most. I've personally witnessed this, no problems. I think disparaging Islam would instantly earn you a reputation that you would never shake during your entire time at the company, you would 100% receive a warning at the very least, and depending on your coworkers, might be outright fired. If you weren't fired, you'd live the rest of your days at the company as a pariah. That all seems self-evident to me, and I find that pretty interesting. Why is discussing it off-limits?
- Avshalom 9y ago
  "in general" covers all changes of all variables.
  - rhapsodic 9y ago
    >"in general" covers all changes of all variables. What I meant when I wrote "in general" was "as a group." For example, Anil Dash, CEO of Fog Creek Software, makes a blanket statement about Christians in this tweet: https://twitter.com/anildash/status/928815535206424576 https://twitter.com/anildash/status/928815535206424576 "No other religion’s followers in America insist on every public official being of their faith." That is a statement, not about a specific individual or group of Christians, but Christians in general. And it's offensive and ridiculous. I know many Christians, but not one of whom for which that statement holds true. Well, I suppose it could be true for some, but most, I know for a fact, it's not. It's like someone saying "Jews are cheap." It's a blanket statement that I think is offensive and ridiculous. However, I've had Jewish relatives who were, in fact, the cheapest people I've ever known, beyond caricature, and I said that about them, in particular, on more than one occasion.

cdoxsey 9y ago

As a Christian, I would say, in general, no they should not be punished or fired for it. Occasionally people say things I find offensive, but its usually unintentional or, at the least, impersonal. A lot of engineers are very secular and have quite negative views of traditional religion, views they're more than willing to express at the drop of a hat, not realizing that religious folk live and work among them. If things are said in an aggressive or confrontational and personal way, or, worse, specific actions are taken (being overlooked for a promotion, humiliated by a superior, forced to take part in objectionable behavior, etc), then that crosses the line, and seems much more objectionable, but even then, its not really the content of the speech so much, but the purpose and motivation behind it. To be honest I would probably not make a complaint, just put up with it, or simply find a new job. In general, I think we should aim to avoid offending people needlessly, but also to avoid taking offense. I've put my foot in my mouth all too often, so showing others a bit of grace seems appropriate.

guptaneil 9y ago

The short answer to both is yes. The longer answer is messier and depends on context and various factors, but I understand the point you’re trying to get at so I’ll address that. I’m sure you’ve seen this cartoon before about equality vs fairness: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*8GivwZy2RijgvaGrySAyAw.png https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*8GivwZy2RijgvaGryS... Answering yes or no to both questions would be equal but not necessarily fair. That’s because as a Christian, you enjoy the benefit of being the majority religion (assuming you’re in the US). You get a break on your holidays, nobody questions your traditions, and nobody really disparages you. As a Muslim, you have to work on your holidays, you have to hide your traditions to fit in with the Christian norms, you deal with strangers assuming you’re a terrorist and getting kicked off airplanes, or having your resume ignored because of your name. These disadvantages compound quickly even if each one individually may not seem like a big deal. So when a coworker disparages you further in the office, it should be dealt with more concretely. In business terms, it’s similar to why it was ok for Apple to make fun of Microsoft in the early 2000’s but would be frowned upon now. It’s ok to punch upwards but don’t kick down.

rhapsodic 9y ago
>That’s because as a Christian, you enjoy the benefit of being the majority religion (assuming you’re in the US). You get a break on your holidays, nobody questions your traditions, and nobody really disparages you. If that's your perception, you can't possibly have spent any significant time in the USA in the past 30 years. For at least that amount of time, Christians, and Christianity in general, have been openly mocked, disparaged and insulted in popular culture, university classrooms, in casual conversation, and all over the internet. (I'm OK with that, FTR.) For as long as I've been old enough to pay attention, it has essentially been open season on Christians in the US. Among the left-wing, educated class, there is virtually no social penalty for insulting Christians or their beliefs. Quite the opposite, in fact. It’s ok to punch upwards but don’t kick down. That's just an arbitrary rule, made up by you. I suspect it's because you want to maintain the status quo I described above, while keeping any public criticism of Muslims a very risky endeavor.

Grue3 9y ago

No, to both. Religion is a choice (in free countries, at least) and does not require special protection. It's no different than saying disparaging remarks about Republicans or Democrats.

sctb 9y ago

Would you mind not posting blatantly off-topic religious flamebait? > Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

rhapsodic 9y ago
Sorry, this was not intended as religious flamebait. It was to illustrate a point that is, I believe, quite pertinant to the issue sama is discussing. And I think it's worth noting that the discussion it engendered was completely civil by all participants, which is what I was hoping for, rather than getting flamed. But I'll defer to your judgement, and not respond again on this thread.