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By the way, what about the victims of this public transport attitude ? Such as this making it impossible for disabled and elderly to do groceries ? (and let's

By the way, what about the victims of this public transport attitude ? Such as this making it impossible for disabled and elderly to do groceries ? (and let's not forget things like Amazon just don't work unless they exploit delivery men if you do choose to answer this question)

yorwba 9y ago
Are you implying that public transport, which in Europe is required to have accessibility measures like ramps and elevators, is worse for someone in a wheelchair than a regular car they would never fit in (let alone in the driver seat)? Most elderly also benefit from the same measures. EDIT: I don't really understand the Amazon question. Maybe I didn't understand the original question either.
- candiodari 9y ago
  1) Cars are accessible for wheelchair users (obviously they are modified for this purpose, which is less than you'd think) [1] [2] [3] 2) public transport is not wheelchair accessible. We have trains from the 70s on the track, and aside from multiple steps and a gap, there are no places for wheelchairs. Buses are a little better, but not really usable either. When push comes to shove, this requires people to lift the wheelchair and put it on the train/bus, then help you on the bus as well. If bystanders don't do this, I guarantee out here the driver won't either. For trains, you are supremely unlikely to find anyone of the public transport companies in the station, and nobody helping wheelchair bound people on the bus. Plus, you never, ever see wheelchairs on the train. Note that if you look at the videos below you see that in most cases, disabled people need (much) more time to get aboard a vehicle. This is not available in public transport and is available in private cars. Furthermore, wheelchair users (as visible in the second video) (and obviously only up to a certain level of disability) are not just able to use cars, but are able to carry and move heavy loads using them, like groceries. So once again, an argument in favor of cars once a good look at reality is added to it. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0usQ1LksSA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0usQ1LksSA [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTuMw6rtsxA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTuMw6rtsxA [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMvvQOeBDfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMvvQOeBDfY
  - Doctor_Fegg 9y ago
    The fact you talk about “public transport” makes me think you’re British, in which case when you say > We have trains from the 70s on the track, and aside from multiple steps and a gap, there are no places for wheelchairs you’re wrong. The only 1970s train still in widespread use is the HST. These have generally been refitted with wheelchair spaces: it’s in carriage C on a GWR HST, for example. Besides, HSTs are being either replaced or hugely refurbished (power doors etc.) by 2020 - because really serious accessibility regulations come into force then (RVAR). Entire fleets of 80s trains (Pacers) are being scrapped because of this. The British railways are already good for accessibility, and getting much better.
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    Your whole argument is just trivially disprovable. Both trains and buses can be wheelchair accessible[1][2]. You don't need to lift the chair, you just roll it in, either up a slight incline in the case of buses or completely flat in the case of trains. No need for bystanders or station attendants to help. [1] https://cdn.londonandpartners.com/visit/london-organisations/transport-system/61162-640x360-tube-wheelchair-passenger.jpg https://cdn.londonandpartners.com/visit/london-organisations... [2] http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1TZlXmiSe3I/UTcdowZY8hI/AAAAAAAAH3w/ElegAi6c0pM/s1600/18119_430.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1TZlXmiSe3I/UTcdowZY8hI/AAAAAAAAH3...
    - candiodari 9y ago
      Googling around a bit Dutch train: https://www.seat61.com/images/Russia-austrian-ext.jpg https://www.seat61.com/images/Russia-austrian-ext.jpg Swiss train: http://citytransport.info/Digi/3253.jpg http://citytransport.info/Digi/3253.jpg British train: https://www.angeltrains.co.uk/Products-Services/Regional-Passenger-Trains/20 https://www.angeltrains.co.uk/Products-Services/Regional-Pas... Eurostar: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/09/14/15/2C4DBFB700000578-3233815-The_e300s_have_been_redesigned_with_a_new_exterior_livery_as_wel-a-73_1442241349696.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/09/14/15/2C4DBFB70000057... (I've used these Eurostar trains. If you have to get on with a wheelchair ... good luck. It's frankly too hard for perfectly normal people and pretty much all young kids have a lot of trouble) Oh and as for London buses: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/driver-in-angry-confrontation-with-wheelchair-user-as-he-tries-to-board-london-bus-a3652516.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/driver-in-angry-co... I will generally agree that London is a positive exception. Mostly because everything else in Europe is utterly inaccessible for wheelchair users. Unfortunately, even with that there isn't all that much that is accessible. Let's just all sanely agree that obviously cars are a lot more wheelchair accessible than public transport, with a few small and limited exceptions. And even within those exceptions, public transport does not provide the services a car can give.
jacobolus 9y ago
Public transit is dramatically better for disabled and elderly people (and anyone else who can’t easily drive, such as children, tourists, the poor, sick/injured people, ..) than cars. High-density neighborhoods make grocery shopping much easier for everyone. Here in San Francisco, I have one grocery store 1 block away, another grocery store 2 blocks away, and 3 more grocery stores within 5 blocks. I can do all of my grocery shopping on foot, and I can pick up what I need in a small batch on my way home on any arbitrary trip. If I were disabled or elderly I would probably additionally need a cart of some sort, instead of carrying groceries myself.
Sharlin 9y ago
What does Amazon have to do with this? Nobody is saying that service trucks transporting goods should go away. Obviously they cannot. And nobody is trying to completely abolish private personal transportation either. But those who need to use a personal car also benefit from more people using public transport, via reduced congestion! Of course, there's coordination problem here: ceteris paribus car users benefit from other people shifting to public transport, as long as they themselves don't have to switch. This is why it is important to make public transport a genuinely attractive option, and to put a price on the negative externalities caused by private cars, for example by means of congestion charges.

yorwba 9y ago

Are you implying that public transport, which in Europe is required to have accessibility measures like ramps and elevators, is worse for someone in a wheelchair than a regular car they would never fit in (let alone in the driver seat)? Most elderly also benefit from the same measures. EDIT: I don't really understand the Amazon question. Maybe I didn't understand the original question either.

candiodari 9y ago
1) Cars are accessible for wheelchair users (obviously they are modified for this purpose, which is less than you'd think) [1] [2] [3] 2) public transport is not wheelchair accessible. We have trains from the 70s on the track, and aside from multiple steps and a gap, there are no places for wheelchairs. Buses are a little better, but not really usable either. When push comes to shove, this requires people to lift the wheelchair and put it on the train/bus, then help you on the bus as well. If bystanders don't do this, I guarantee out here the driver won't either. For trains, you are supremely unlikely to find anyone of the public transport companies in the station, and nobody helping wheelchair bound people on the bus. Plus, you never, ever see wheelchairs on the train. Note that if you look at the videos below you see that in most cases, disabled people need (much) more time to get aboard a vehicle. This is not available in public transport and is available in private cars. Furthermore, wheelchair users (as visible in the second video) (and obviously only up to a certain level of disability) are not just able to use cars, but are able to carry and move heavy loads using them, like groceries. So once again, an argument in favor of cars once a good look at reality is added to it. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0usQ1LksSA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0usQ1LksSA [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTuMw6rtsxA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTuMw6rtsxA [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMvvQOeBDfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMvvQOeBDfY
- Doctor_Fegg 9y ago
  The fact you talk about “public transport” makes me think you’re British, in which case when you say > We have trains from the 70s on the track, and aside from multiple steps and a gap, there are no places for wheelchairs you’re wrong. The only 1970s train still in widespread use is the HST. These have generally been refitted with wheelchair spaces: it’s in carriage C on a GWR HST, for example. Besides, HSTs are being either replaced or hugely refurbished (power doors etc.) by 2020 - because really serious accessibility regulations come into force then (RVAR). Entire fleets of 80s trains (Pacers) are being scrapped because of this. The British railways are already good for accessibility, and getting much better.
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  Your whole argument is just trivially disprovable. Both trains and buses can be wheelchair accessible[1][2]. You don't need to lift the chair, you just roll it in, either up a slight incline in the case of buses or completely flat in the case of trains. No need for bystanders or station attendants to help. [1] https://cdn.londonandpartners.com/visit/london-organisations/transport-system/61162-640x360-tube-wheelchair-passenger.jpg https://cdn.londonandpartners.com/visit/london-organisations... [2] http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1TZlXmiSe3I/UTcdowZY8hI/AAAAAAAAH3w/ElegAi6c0pM/s1600/18119_430.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1TZlXmiSe3I/UTcdowZY8hI/AAAAAAAAH3...
  - candiodari 9y ago
    Googling around a bit Dutch train: https://www.seat61.com/images/Russia-austrian-ext.jpg https://www.seat61.com/images/Russia-austrian-ext.jpg Swiss train: http://citytransport.info/Digi/3253.jpg http://citytransport.info/Digi/3253.jpg British train: https://www.angeltrains.co.uk/Products-Services/Regional-Passenger-Trains/20 https://www.angeltrains.co.uk/Products-Services/Regional-Pas... Eurostar: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/09/14/15/2C4DBFB700000578-3233815-The_e300s_have_been_redesigned_with_a_new_exterior_livery_as_wel-a-73_1442241349696.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/09/14/15/2C4DBFB70000057... (I've used these Eurostar trains. If you have to get on with a wheelchair ... good luck. It's frankly too hard for perfectly normal people and pretty much all young kids have a lot of trouble) Oh and as for London buses: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/driver-in-angry-confrontation-with-wheelchair-user-as-he-tries-to-board-london-bus-a3652516.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/driver-in-angry-co... I will generally agree that London is a positive exception. Mostly because everything else in Europe is utterly inaccessible for wheelchair users. Unfortunately, even with that there isn't all that much that is accessible. Let's just all sanely agree that obviously cars are a lot more wheelchair accessible than public transport, with a few small and limited exceptions. And even within those exceptions, public transport does not provide the services a car can give.

jacobolus 9y ago

Public transit is dramatically better for disabled and elderly people (and anyone else who can’t easily drive, such as children, tourists, the poor, sick/injured people, ..) than cars. High-density neighborhoods make grocery shopping much easier for everyone. Here in San Francisco, I have one grocery store 1 block away, another grocery store 2 blocks away, and 3 more grocery stores within 5 blocks. I can do all of my grocery shopping on foot, and I can pick up what I need in a small batch on my way home on any arbitrary trip. If I were disabled or elderly I would probably additionally need a cart of some sort, instead of carrying groceries myself.

Sharlin 9y ago

What does Amazon have to do with this? Nobody is saying that service trucks transporting goods should go away. Obviously they cannot. And nobody is trying to completely abolish private personal transportation either. But those who need to use a personal car also benefit from more people using public transport, via reduced congestion! Of course, there's coordination problem here: ceteris paribus car users benefit from other people shifting to public transport, as long as they themselves don't have to switch. This is why it is important to make public transport a genuinely attractive option, and to put a price on the negative externalities caused by private cars, for example by means of congestion charges.