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Liberals and conservatives can take a look at the same data about homelessness and poverty in the US and come to radically different policy conclusions. The lib

Liberals and conservatives can take a look at the same data about homelessness and poverty in the US and come to radically different policy conclusions. The liberals say: look at this terrible poverty! We need to raise taxes and provide more social services! The conservatives say: look at this terrible poverty, that still exists in spite of the fact that we spend VAST TRILLIONS of dollars on social services! Apparently the services have nearly zero benefit, so we might as well cut them and lower taxes. If you think the conservative position is obviously wrong, study Hong Kong and Singapore. They have radically lower taxes than the US (14% and 17% of GDP vs 37% in the US), and yet exceed the US in every dimension of social welfare: better education, health, and infrastructure; lower crime, drug use, poverty and homelessness.

nickthemagicman 9y ago
So you're saying basic income is a better solution? Just cut the government out of it and give people the money? I completely agree.
mcphage 9y ago
> If you think the conservative position is obviously wrong, study Hong Kong and Singapore. Or study the US, where the states with the highest taxes have the lowest poverty levels, and where the states with lowest taxes have the highest levels of poverty.
- indubitable 9y ago
  What is your reason for saying this? That was quite an interesting comment, but after working to verify it - it seems to be simply false? States by tax level ##: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-us-states-have-the-highest-and-lowest-taxes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-us-states-have-the-highest... States by poverty rate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty... --- Wyoming - lowest tax rate, 3rd lowest poverty rate Alaska - 2nd lowest tax rate, 8th lowest poverty rate Nevada - 3rd lowest tax rate, 29th lowest poverty rate South Dakota - 4th lowest tax rate, 23rd lowest poverty rate Florida - 5th lowest tax rate, 37th lowest poverty rate - New York - highest tax rate, 32nd lowest poverty rate California - 2nd highest tax rate, 35th lowest poverty rate Nebraska - 3rd highest tax rate, 15th lowest poverty rate Connecticut - 4th highest tax rate, 4th lowest poverty rate Illinois - 5th highest tax rate, 24th lowest poverty rate --- I'm not going to map out all 50 states, but at least for the top and bottom there seems to be no correlation at all. The low tax nations average to the 20th lowest poverty rate. The high tax states average out to the 22nd lowest poverty rate. To be clear, that means the high tax states suffer more poverty - at least when just considering the top 5 for each. --- ## = The reason I used that article instead of Wiki's list of states by tax level ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_tax_levels_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_tax_levels_in_the_United... ) is that the Wiki page just offers data on state tax income, not about the actual rates.
  - nkurz 9y ago
    Fabulous comment, thanks for researching and reporting back on this!
  - AnodyneComplex 9y ago
    It's hard to do this just based on raw tax numbers. For instance, Alaska, Wyoming and South Dakota all have large scale extraction operations as a fraction of population. These supply a large fraction of income and are obviously tied to a particular geographical. My guess is that states with more social services aren't necessarily going to have fewer people below the poverty line, but that being poor is not as bad there (via access to health care, food/rent subsidies, etc). That's obviously harder to pin a number on though.
charlysl 9y ago
Singapore and HK are more like city states in a strategic position without a hinterland. I doubt anything can be extrapolated from them.
akoncius 9y ago
I think either political view does not raise main question: why there is a poverty in a such level? what causes it? safety nets are temporary solution, just to keep people from starving to death. but to prevent people to even get to poverty , society needs to do something. It’s a bit similar to hipotetical situation: human is having a fever, and doctors are arguing which medicine to give to patient, regardless of what causes it. is it infection? flu? complication from chemotherapy? I see little to none of these questions in politics/news articles. when people will correctly identify cause, fix will be obvious.

nickthemagicman 9y ago

So you're saying basic income is a better solution? Just cut the government out of it and give people the money? I completely agree.

mcphage 9y ago

> If you think the conservative position is obviously wrong, study Hong Kong and Singapore. Or study the US, where the states with the highest taxes have the lowest poverty levels, and where the states with lowest taxes have the highest levels of poverty.

indubitable 9y ago
What is your reason for saying this? That was quite an interesting comment, but after working to verify it - it seems to be simply false? States by tax level ##: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-us-states-have-the-highest-and-lowest-taxes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-us-states-have-the-highest... States by poverty rate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty... --- Wyoming - lowest tax rate, 3rd lowest poverty rate Alaska - 2nd lowest tax rate, 8th lowest poverty rate Nevada - 3rd lowest tax rate, 29th lowest poverty rate South Dakota - 4th lowest tax rate, 23rd lowest poverty rate Florida - 5th lowest tax rate, 37th lowest poverty rate - New York - highest tax rate, 32nd lowest poverty rate California - 2nd highest tax rate, 35th lowest poverty rate Nebraska - 3rd highest tax rate, 15th lowest poverty rate Connecticut - 4th highest tax rate, 4th lowest poverty rate Illinois - 5th highest tax rate, 24th lowest poverty rate --- I'm not going to map out all 50 states, but at least for the top and bottom there seems to be no correlation at all. The low tax nations average to the 20th lowest poverty rate. The high tax states average out to the 22nd lowest poverty rate. To be clear, that means the high tax states suffer more poverty - at least when just considering the top 5 for each. --- ## = The reason I used that article instead of Wiki's list of states by tax level ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_tax_levels_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_tax_levels_in_the_United... ) is that the Wiki page just offers data on state tax income, not about the actual rates.
- nkurz 9y ago
  Fabulous comment, thanks for researching and reporting back on this!
- AnodyneComplex 9y ago
  It's hard to do this just based on raw tax numbers. For instance, Alaska, Wyoming and South Dakota all have large scale extraction operations as a fraction of population. These supply a large fraction of income and are obviously tied to a particular geographical. My guess is that states with more social services aren't necessarily going to have fewer people below the poverty line, but that being poor is not as bad there (via access to health care, food/rent subsidies, etc). That's obviously harder to pin a number on though.

charlysl 9y ago

Singapore and HK are more like city states in a strategic position without a hinterland. I doubt anything can be extrapolated from them.

akoncius 9y ago

I think either political view does not raise main question: why there is a poverty in a such level? what causes it? safety nets are temporary solution, just to keep people from starving to death. but to prevent people to even get to poverty , society needs to do something. It’s a bit similar to hipotetical situation: human is having a fever, and doctors are arguing which medicine to give to patient, regardless of what causes it. is it infection? flu? complication from chemotherapy? I see little to none of these questions in politics/news articles. when people will correctly identify cause, fix will be obvious.