7 ms·

Well, that's how democracies work. And the people of Europe can vote him out when his term is up. Hardy har...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
tormeh 9y ago
They could, if they cared. I don't think they do. EP election participation is very low, and I don't think it's widely publicized which parties back which candidates. De jure, it's the national governments that elect the commissioner. I doubt the commissioner plays much of a role in national elections. Finally, I don't think people know or care much who is the commissioner. I mean, this is HN, so probably a subset of top 5% intellectually curious people and people here still know nothing about how this stuff works.
- FRex 9y ago
  The people care infinitely more about "informational" memes about curvy bananas and conspiracy theories about Muslims and cultural marxism than about who picks who in some EU structure. At the same time even the slightest EU regulations are like communism and even the tiniest enforcement of EU law or solidarity is comparable to an armed invasion on the country's sovereignty. Cases in point are how before downing of MH17 in Ukraine Western European attitudes about sanctioning Russia were "not our problem" and "we would lose money" and how Eastern Europe fought tooth and nail against refugees because "Merkel invited them" and "all Muslims are rapists and terrorists". And to add insult to injury every time European Council or European Parliament does something dumb the EU is being called undemocratic. The democratic care deficit in people is not even EU specific. Turnaround is low all around in various elections and some people don't even know the name of the ruling party, prime minister, president, etc. in their own country. Maybe the EU should actually disband and let Germany steamroll us all yet again. Maybe then people would get it.
  - stale2002 9y ago
    I think what these eastern European countries want is precisely for Germany to stay out of their business. Ex, on immigration policy is just one example. What is the solution that has germany completely leaving these countries alone, whether it is directly, or indirectly via the EU?
  - woodpanel 9y ago
    While I agree, we would all be better off if the populace was more intelligent, I can't deny that this is a very narcissistic attitude. National elections carry vastly more importance for the people than EP elections, just look at the voter turnout statistics. And rightfully so. Just look at the daily news of Denmark, Netherlands or Germany. Countries that are compared to other sets of nations remarkably similar. Yet, languages aside, have vastly different daily concerns and thus vastly different needs. A parliament where your nations needs are watered down is guaranteed to offend your nations voters over each iteration where such offending decision takes place. The bigger the electorate, the lesser a vote counts, thus less participation and ultimately less democratic legitimacy.
    - FRex 9y ago
      I absolutely disagree with everything here. Voting doesn't require extraordinary feats of intelligence or lots of time. Probably up to 99% of people in Europe are literate and not declared insane and thus able to vote. All it requires is an ounce of care and taking a slightly longer walk once every 5 years. Even if the chance of making a change is miniscule it should be a forgone conclusion. Almost every major party that starts in national elections also starts in European ones so the lowest effort vote is to just vote along your party line for whoever (which many/most people do for all elections already anyway). I will not ever buy the excuse that 60% of Europeans have not enough time to vote or took the high road and decided to not vote to not skew the results by their uninformed choice. It's a question of attitude towards EU and democracy itself more than it is a question of how much it truly matters. Poland is a unitary republic with directly elected president with strong veto power (which means that mismatch between president and parliament in political direction causes parliament to be more tame in bills it drafts). There was no two consecutive presidents from same political affiliation so far and only once there were two consecutive parliaments under the same party's government (PO-PSL coalition). This means that there is high chance to affect the outcome and that this outcome determines both the direction the country goes in and how strongly it goes in it. Despite that the turnout for both presidential and parliamentary elections was only around 50% (55% for second round in presidential elections). Due to few quirks of the rules and how close it was even half a million extra voters in right places could have affected the outcome significantly. Meanwhile in the federal German elections there was over 75% turnout this year despite the fact that German federal government is quite stable for the last 17 years (Merkel as chancellor) and being a federation every German has his Land government (that is infinitely more powerful and autonomous than a Województwo in Poland is) closer to him and his "daily concerns and needs". It's also not a question of only the how much effect the vote has because Poland's turnout in European elections is worse than it is for many smaller (dare I say - more pro-EU..) countries like Belgium, Luxembourg, etc. despite that fact that we get more MEPs than they do. Even more ironically, each Polish vote was stronger in its effect on EP composition than theirs due to that higher MEP number we get and low turnout we provide, i.e. 7.5 million Poles elected 51 MEPs at 24% turnout while 4 million Belgians elected 21 at 90% turnout. EU and its predecessors were also supposed to prevent wars (one of actually stated ECSC goals was to make a war between France and Germany literally impossible) and set long term strategic goals, not manage day-to-day lives of Europeans, that's what their municipalities should do for them.
alva 9y ago
> And the people of Europe can vote him out when his term is up Wrong. He is not elected by the people of Europe
- FRex 9y ago
  To say it like that is absolutely disingenuous and misleading. He was approved by the EPP, European Parliament (that is directly elected) and European Council (whose members are heads of states or government and they are directly or indirectly elected in their countries). If people wanted him out strongly enough he would be out. But most people don't care about elections to EP enough to even show up, turnaround in 2014 was 42%. Ministers, heads of government, speakers of the house, military officers, police chiefs, other parts of the executive branch, presidents of national companies and the central bank, heads of intelligence agencies, military officers and other positions that are the actual decision makers are not directly elected but appointed by the winners of direct elections (often a single party that doesn't even hold the absolute majority of popular support, as is the case now in Poland, where PiS has 51.5% of MPs with 39% of votes due to few quirks of the rules) in many countries and that's apparently not an issue to anyone at all (i.e. not anyone attacks PiS on that fact, even though they deflect all criticism by saying they are "representing the will of Poles") but when the same process happens in the EU among a much larger group of country heads and MEPs and with an absolute majority in place then it's the end of the world and dictatorship.
  - petre 9y ago
    He's elected by a bureaucracy and some part of this bureaucracy is elected by the people that actually care to vote.
    - FRex 9y ago
      He is elected by EP (which is directly elected) and the European Council (members of which are directly or indirectly elected in their countries) so he is only twice and thrice removed from the voters, which is the same or closer than most of the actual "bureaucracy" (and that's not a dirty word and voting process in itself is very bureaucratic too) that governs people lives in nations is (which is not a problem or sign of 'deficit of democracy' or whatever to anyone who uses these arguments against the EU). Luxembourg also (article) continues/doubles down it's tax deal policy despite him not being their prime minister anymore so these deals are not bad enough to burn whoever defends them to the point of being unelectable, the commission is now on that case and he as the President of the Commissioner answers to EU structures so if he does prove inadequate in his role and other countries' representatives care enough then he is toast (and if they all don't then who/what is supposed to take care of him and on whose democratic mandate?) but if he doesn't then there is no reason for him to get removed even if Luxembourg hates him for it, support of home country is clearly not formally or practically required, i.e. Tusk stayed where he is (Council President) without Polish support because other country heads kept him there.
petre 9y ago
How? I never voted for Junker. I voted a list of MPs from my country.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

They could, if they cared. I don't think they do. EP election participation is very low, and I don't think it's widely publicized which parties back which candidates. De jure, it's the national governments that elect the commissioner. I doubt the commissioner plays much of a role in national elections. Finally, I don't think people know or care much who is the commissioner. I mean, this is HN, so probably a subset of top 5% intellectually curious people and people here still know nothing about how this stuff works.

FRex 9y ago
The people care infinitely more about "informational" memes about curvy bananas and conspiracy theories about Muslims and cultural marxism than about who picks who in some EU structure. At the same time even the slightest EU regulations are like communism and even the tiniest enforcement of EU law or solidarity is comparable to an armed invasion on the country's sovereignty. Cases in point are how before downing of MH17 in Ukraine Western European attitudes about sanctioning Russia were "not our problem" and "we would lose money" and how Eastern Europe fought tooth and nail against refugees because "Merkel invited them" and "all Muslims are rapists and terrorists". And to add insult to injury every time European Council or European Parliament does something dumb the EU is being called undemocratic. The democratic care deficit in people is not even EU specific. Turnaround is low all around in various elections and some people don't even know the name of the ruling party, prime minister, president, etc. in their own country. Maybe the EU should actually disband and let Germany steamroll us all yet again. Maybe then people would get it.
- stale2002 9y ago
  I think what these eastern European countries want is precisely for Germany to stay out of their business. Ex, on immigration policy is just one example. What is the solution that has germany completely leaving these countries alone, whether it is directly, or indirectly via the EU?
- woodpanel 9y ago
  While I agree, we would all be better off if the populace was more intelligent, I can't deny that this is a very narcissistic attitude. National elections carry vastly more importance for the people than EP elections, just look at the voter turnout statistics. And rightfully so. Just look at the daily news of Denmark, Netherlands or Germany. Countries that are compared to other sets of nations remarkably similar. Yet, languages aside, have vastly different daily concerns and thus vastly different needs. A parliament where your nations needs are watered down is guaranteed to offend your nations voters over each iteration where such offending decision takes place. The bigger the electorate, the lesser a vote counts, thus less participation and ultimately less democratic legitimacy.
  - FRex 9y ago
    I absolutely disagree with everything here. Voting doesn't require extraordinary feats of intelligence or lots of time. Probably up to 99% of people in Europe are literate and not declared insane and thus able to vote. All it requires is an ounce of care and taking a slightly longer walk once every 5 years. Even if the chance of making a change is miniscule it should be a forgone conclusion. Almost every major party that starts in national elections also starts in European ones so the lowest effort vote is to just vote along your party line for whoever (which many/most people do for all elections already anyway). I will not ever buy the excuse that 60% of Europeans have not enough time to vote or took the high road and decided to not vote to not skew the results by their uninformed choice. It's a question of attitude towards EU and democracy itself more than it is a question of how much it truly matters. Poland is a unitary republic with directly elected president with strong veto power (which means that mismatch between president and parliament in political direction causes parliament to be more tame in bills it drafts). There was no two consecutive presidents from same political affiliation so far and only once there were two consecutive parliaments under the same party's government (PO-PSL coalition). This means that there is high chance to affect the outcome and that this outcome determines both the direction the country goes in and how strongly it goes in it. Despite that the turnout for both presidential and parliamentary elections was only around 50% (55% for second round in presidential elections). Due to few quirks of the rules and how close it was even half a million extra voters in right places could have affected the outcome significantly. Meanwhile in the federal German elections there was over 75% turnout this year despite the fact that German federal government is quite stable for the last 17 years (Merkel as chancellor) and being a federation every German has his Land government (that is infinitely more powerful and autonomous than a Województwo in Poland is) closer to him and his "daily concerns and needs". It's also not a question of only the how much effect the vote has because Poland's turnout in European elections is worse than it is for many smaller (dare I say - more pro-EU..) countries like Belgium, Luxembourg, etc. despite that fact that we get more MEPs than they do. Even more ironically, each Polish vote was stronger in its effect on EP composition than theirs due to that higher MEP number we get and low turnout we provide, i.e. 7.5 million Poles elected 51 MEPs at 24% turnout while 4 million Belgians elected 21 at 90% turnout. EU and its predecessors were also supposed to prevent wars (one of actually stated ECSC goals was to make a war between France and Germany literally impossible) and set long term strategic goals, not manage day-to-day lives of Europeans, that's what their municipalities should do for them.

alva 9y ago

> And the people of Europe can vote him out when his term is up Wrong. He is not elected by the people of Europe

FRex 9y ago
To say it like that is absolutely disingenuous and misleading. He was approved by the EPP, European Parliament (that is directly elected) and European Council (whose members are heads of states or government and they are directly or indirectly elected in their countries). If people wanted him out strongly enough he would be out. But most people don't care about elections to EP enough to even show up, turnaround in 2014 was 42%. Ministers, heads of government, speakers of the house, military officers, police chiefs, other parts of the executive branch, presidents of national companies and the central bank, heads of intelligence agencies, military officers and other positions that are the actual decision makers are not directly elected but appointed by the winners of direct elections (often a single party that doesn't even hold the absolute majority of popular support, as is the case now in Poland, where PiS has 51.5% of MPs with 39% of votes due to few quirks of the rules) in many countries and that's apparently not an issue to anyone at all (i.e. not anyone attacks PiS on that fact, even though they deflect all criticism by saying they are "representing the will of Poles") but when the same process happens in the EU among a much larger group of country heads and MEPs and with an absolute majority in place then it's the end of the world and dictatorship.
- petre 9y ago
  He's elected by a bureaucracy and some part of this bureaucracy is elected by the people that actually care to vote.
  - FRex 9y ago
    He is elected by EP (which is directly elected) and the European Council (members of which are directly or indirectly elected in their countries) so he is only twice and thrice removed from the voters, which is the same or closer than most of the actual "bureaucracy" (and that's not a dirty word and voting process in itself is very bureaucratic too) that governs people lives in nations is (which is not a problem or sign of 'deficit of democracy' or whatever to anyone who uses these arguments against the EU). Luxembourg also (article) continues/doubles down it's tax deal policy despite him not being their prime minister anymore so these deals are not bad enough to burn whoever defends them to the point of being unelectable, the commission is now on that case and he as the President of the Commissioner answers to EU structures so if he does prove inadequate in his role and other countries' representatives care enough then he is toast (and if they all don't then who/what is supposed to take care of him and on whose democratic mandate?) but if he doesn't then there is no reason for him to get removed even if Luxembourg hates him for it, support of home country is clearly not formally or practically required, i.e. Tusk stayed where he is (Council President) without Polish support because other country heads kept him there.

petre 9y ago

How? I never voted for Junker. I voted a list of MPs from my country.