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“”” 2) who selectively deny their personal ethical/moral responsibility as adults and their ability to use free will ("I was too feared to speak up")- which the

“”” 2) who selectively deny their personal ethical/moral responsibility as adults and their ability to use free will ("I was too feared to speak up")- which they of course in all other scenarios would insist in - when it suits them - but still now, that they finally tell their stories, ask for full retribution. Fear of losing a job/allies/opportunities for not having spoken up over long amounts of time is not a valid excuse, in my eyes. It's more a sign of lack of integrity. And lack of integrity seems to be the big problem here anyway, for everyone involved. “”” I’m not trying to be controversial, but from my perspective this is the actual definition of victim blaming - do you agree with this assessment? Not in the sense that a victim is responsible for their own attack, but rather the victim is responsible for every subsequent attack. Do you believe initial victims bear some culpability in their aggressors later attacks? From my perspective you’re suggesting it’s the onus of victims to reorient their lives and potentially suffer in their professional career in order to police the voluntary actions of another person. Is this accurate? Would you agree the victim has that responsibility? “”” 2) who selectively deny their personal ethical/moral responsibility as adults and their ability to use free will ("I was too feared to speak up") “”” Again, not trying to be controversial - but have you ever been the victim of a physical assault? Have you ever put your career on the line to get justice for something? I’m curious because from my perspective you’re treating this issue quite flippantly, and with a very narrow minded viewpoint. I suspect that many men who haven’t been in violent situations have a hard time understanding feelings of physical vulnerability. And they have an even harder time understanding why even seemingly mild cases of verbal inappropriateness can cause the same feelings of physical vulnerability. “”” So as far as I can tell, the root of this mess is not a gender-related problem, but a general problem of learned social behavior and compulsive conflict aversion. “”” I think your position sounds perfectly reasonable to people who don’t have any experience with it, but breaks down when actually applied in real life. Specifically, I think youre proposing that women just shut down situations they feel unease about, which sounds perfectly logical and may happen most of the time. But it ignores the other outcome, those which Hollywood is famous for - women that decline the sexual advances of men find themselves labeled as ‘frigid’, ‘uptight’, or ‘difficult to work with’, and watch their professional lives suffer as a result. In my opinion, the conflict aversion is the optimal strategy for when one potential outcome is neutral (the harasser is sorry, and otherwise won’t hinder victims livelihood or career), and the other outcome is highly damaging (the agressor escalates, or the aggressor is sorry but feels the need to harm the victims career to protect their own).

imartin2k 9y ago
Thanks for your comment and those very clear questions, this is a good way for me to see how my comment can be understood, and it allows me to clarify in case necessary. "Do you believe initial victims bear some culpability in their aggressors later attacks?" Definitely not. If this is how my comment can be understood, then I failed to express what I meant, although reading it again and again, I am a surprised about this. However, it's just a reminder how different the same statement can be interpreted. My reference was to what I see as a moral/ethical responsibility of an individual to the society at large to do something against a negative phenomenon. I see everyone carrying a responsibility to make a society work. That means speaking up, that means giving feedback, that means helping people to improve - and yes, sometimes that means giving up or at least risking an opportunity, because sometimes, doing these things which I just described is not received well. Which brings me to your second point and your question. "But have you ever been the victim of a physical assault? Have you ever put your career on the line to get justice for something?" I have been putting my "career" (in the sense of opportunities and professional relationships) on the line multiple times due to me disagreeing with various terms, or based on certain principles, or simply because I felt that what I was asked to do would not be true to myself, and I have expressed clear and loud disagreements to the extend that I wasn't sure whether voicing this would get me fired. I am generally a person who rather says "no" to something than to say "yes" just to avoid the conflict. This probably impacts the way I look at the whole topic. I wouldn't have written what I wrote if this is not how I try to act myself. For me, my integrity is more important than money, career, power, status. However, I have not been physical assaulted in that context that we are talking about here (even though I have been physically assaulted in a violent non-sexual context, but I guess that's not really what you are looking for). Having said that, I have a hard time with this idea of extreme human vulnerability in cases such as the one's we are talking here though. I am a human being myself. Even though I am not a woman and have not had a colleague trying to kiss me at a party or sending me inappropriate text messages, I have had plenty of stressing, uncomfortable, potentially threatening "real life experiences" to state t hat, while everything can leave (psychological) scares , essentially describing women (or individuals in general, as I - as mentioned before - consider the underlying motivator of action or not-action being not gender-related) as completely helpless in these situations is the wrong approach, no matter how "right" it feels.

imartin2k 9y ago

Thanks for your comment and those very clear questions, this is a good way for me to see how my comment can be understood, and it allows me to clarify in case necessary. "Do you believe initial victims bear some culpability in their aggressors later attacks?" Definitely not. If this is how my comment can be understood, then I failed to express what I meant, although reading it again and again, I am a surprised about this. However, it's just a reminder how different the same statement can be interpreted. My reference was to what I see as a moral/ethical responsibility of an individual to the society at large to do something against a negative phenomenon. I see everyone carrying a responsibility to make a society work. That means speaking up, that means giving feedback, that means helping people to improve - and yes, sometimes that means giving up or at least risking an opportunity, because sometimes, doing these things which I just described is not received well. Which brings me to your second point and your question. "But have you ever been the victim of a physical assault? Have you ever put your career on the line to get justice for something?" I have been putting my "career" (in the sense of opportunities and professional relationships) on the line multiple times due to me disagreeing with various terms, or based on certain principles, or simply because I felt that what I was asked to do would not be true to myself, and I have expressed clear and loud disagreements to the extend that I wasn't sure whether voicing this would get me fired. I am generally a person who rather says "no" to something than to say "yes" just to avoid the conflict. This probably impacts the way I look at the whole topic. I wouldn't have written what I wrote if this is not how I try to act myself. For me, my integrity is more important than money, career, power, status. However, I have not been physical assaulted in that context that we are talking about here (even though I have been physically assaulted in a violent non-sexual context, but I guess that's not really what you are looking for). Having said that, I have a hard time with this idea of extreme human vulnerability in cases such as the one's we are talking here though. I am a human being myself. Even though I am not a woman and have not had a colleague trying to kiss me at a party or sending me inappropriate text messages, I have had plenty of stressing, uncomfortable, potentially threatening "real life experiences" to state t hat, while everything can leave (psychological) scares , essentially describing women (or individuals in general, as I - as mentioned before - consider the underlying motivator of action or not-action being not gender-related) as completely helpless in these situations is the wrong approach, no matter how "right" it feels.