8 ms·

Half of which belongs to Italy[0], considering they evaded taxes for years. [0](https://www.wired.it/economia/business/2017/12/15/amazon-accordo-100-milioni/ h

Half of which belongs to Italy[0], considering they evaded taxes for years. [0](https://www.wired.it/economia/business/2017/12/15/amazon-accordo-100-milioni/ https://www.wired.it/economia/business/2017/12/15/amazon-acc...)

riffraff 9y ago
That is unrelated, the things contested to Luxemburg is that there was a special agreement in place for Amazon, which is forbidden by EU regulations. The thing contested from the Italian tax office is actual tax evasion. Edit: to clarify, I mean that Luxemburg can have had illicit behaviour independently from Amazon acting legally in Italy (which in theory they did since 2015).
- wiz21c 9y ago
  JC Junker, current President of the Commission, was also Prime Minister of Luxembourg just before... Is it me or does it sound just awful ?
  - titanix2 9y ago
    It is. One more little stone to the growing anti-EU feeling that some europeans held.
    - smhg 9y ago
      Or, for others with a different feeling about the EU/transnational cooperation: Something that needs to be improved.
      - toyg 9y ago
        ... because before the EU (i.e. all the treaties and "communities" that were set up piecemeal and then eventually coalesced into EU institutions), what was the premier instrument of dispute resolution in the European region? War.
        sbmassey 9y ago
        Diplomacy was actually a lot more common than war.
  - tormeh 9y ago
    Definitely awful. The discovery led to a huge scandal, but of course it was discovered after Juncker became president of the EC. He shouldn't have the position he has, but I'm not sure what could be done about it at that point.
    - yostrovs 9y ago
      Well, that's how democracies work. And the people of Europe can vote him out when his term is up. Hardy har...
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - tormeh 9y ago
        They could, if they cared. I don't think they do. EP election participation is very low, and I don't think it's widely publicized which parties back which candidates. De jure, it's the national governments that elect the commissioner. I doubt the commissioner plays much of a role in national elections. Finally, I don't think people know or care much who is the commissioner. I mean, this is HN, so probably a subset of top 5% intellectually curious people and people here still know nothing about how this stuff works.
        FRex 9y ago
        The people care infinitely more about "informational" memes about curvy bananas and conspiracy theories about Muslims and cultural marxism than about who picks who in some EU structure. At the same time even the slightest EU regulations are like communism and even the tiniest enforcement of EU law or solidarity is comparable to an armed invasion on the country's sovereignty. Cases in point are how before downing of MH17 in Ukraine Western European attitudes about sanctioning Russia were "not our problem" and "we would lose money" and how Eastern Europe fought tooth and nail against refugees because "Merkel invited them" and "all Muslims are rapists and terrorists". And to add insult to injury every time European Council or European Parliament does something dumb the EU is being called undemocratic. The democratic care deficit in people is not even EU specific. Turnaround is low all around in various elections and some people don't even know the name of the ruling party, prime minister, president, etc. in their own country. Maybe the EU should actually disband and let Germany steamroll us all yet again. Maybe then people would get it.
  - blibble 9y ago
    the EU has a tendency to be where clapped out/disgraced national politicians that are no longer electable in their home countries end up it's a nice place to retire, and pays more than the national office too there's peter mandelson, jean-claude juncker and guy verhofstadt, to name a few
    - Ftuuky 9y ago
      Durão Barroso too.
      - FRex 9y ago
        He was the President of the European Commission which requires approval of European Parliament (elected directly) and European Council (the heads of countries). What the fuck is EU supposed to do with him? Throw him out and tell leaders and directly elected MEPs from 20+ countries to shove it? And who exactly is the EU in that case? Who and how could challenge these decisions while the majority of actual people in Europe don't give enough of a shit about Barroso and elect (if they even go to the elections..) these governments, heads of state and MEPs that put him where he was?
      - B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
        That one actually skipped town while in office to get the job.
    - tormeh 9y ago
      Or they get sent there because they lost a fight in their party: "In Brussels, no one can hear you scream". It's definitely a step down compared to national politics. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Of course, if the EU was more powerful this might attract more up-and-coming politicians, but I don't think that's what people who make this complaint wants.
    - jimnotgym 9y ago
      > no longer electable Guy Verhofstadt is an MEP so was directly elected by his home country. Mandelson and Junker were/are civil servants so wouldn't get elected directly, but appointed by elected politicians. > nice place to retire Or in Mandelson's case a nice place to negotiate a ground-breaking trade deal with India. I'm planning an easier retirement myself. Maybe the UK house of Lords. Unellected clapped out politicians...
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  It is becoming clear that the UK has a deal with big US tech too. https://waitingfortax.com/2017/06/30/uber-a-new-front/ https://waitingfortax.com/2017/06/30/uber-a-new-front/
jorvi 9y ago
Wouldn't it be much simpler to just require companies to pay taxes in the country their product or service is sold, as a percentage of said product or service? Basically a super sales tax. Right now Italy feels like Luxembourg stole it taxes and meanwhile the US feels like those taxes are actually really theirs since its an US company. For me at least, I feel like this: an iPhone, imported by an Italian company (or subsidiary), sold by an Italian dude working in an Italian mobile phone shop, to an Italian who pays with a €700 transfer from his Italian bank account to the shops' Italian bank account.. the taxes for that should fully go to Italy. Why shouldn't it, except for the fiscal advantages of global companies?
- UncleEntity 9y ago
  Isn't that what the VAT is for? Honestly asking because US states fall all over themselves to give tax breaks to companies all the time. Hell, even individual cities compete with each other using tax breaks to attract employers. I couldn't even imagine the federal government stepping in and forcing a state to collect more in taxes "to encourage competition".
  - nikanj 9y ago
    VAT only applies to consumers, not businesses. To be fair, that seems to be where our corporate tax system is headed anyway: zero rating for the companies, and consumers pay all the taxes.
    - jnordwick 9y ago
      Corporations don't pay taxes in any meanings sense anyways. Individuals always pay for taxes. Owners (lower profits), employees (lower wages and fewer jobs), and consumers (high prices and fewer products) all split the tax burden imposed on a firm.
  - cc81 9y ago
    The federal government steps in and collects taxes from the corporations directly instead, right?

riffraff 9y ago

That is unrelated, the things contested to Luxemburg is that there was a special agreement in place for Amazon, which is forbidden by EU regulations. The thing contested from the Italian tax office is actual tax evasion. Edit: to clarify, I mean that Luxemburg can have had illicit behaviour independently from Amazon acting legally in Italy (which in theory they did since 2015).

wiz21c 9y ago
JC Junker, current President of the Commission, was also Prime Minister of Luxembourg just before... Is it me or does it sound just awful ?
- titanix2 9y ago
  It is. One more little stone to the growing anti-EU feeling that some europeans held.
  - smhg 9y ago
    Or, for others with a different feeling about the EU/transnational cooperation: Something that needs to be improved.
    - toyg 9y ago
      ... because before the EU (i.e. all the treaties and "communities" that were set up piecemeal and then eventually coalesced into EU institutions), what was the premier instrument of dispute resolution in the European region? War.
      - sbmassey 9y ago
        Diplomacy was actually a lot more common than war.
- tormeh 9y ago
  Definitely awful. The discovery led to a huge scandal, but of course it was discovered after Juncker became president of the EC. He shouldn't have the position he has, but I'm not sure what could be done about it at that point.
  - yostrovs 9y ago
    Well, that's how democracies work. And the people of Europe can vote him out when his term is up. Hardy har...
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - tormeh 9y ago
      They could, if they cared. I don't think they do. EP election participation is very low, and I don't think it's widely publicized which parties back which candidates. De jure, it's the national governments that elect the commissioner. I doubt the commissioner plays much of a role in national elections. Finally, I don't think people know or care much who is the commissioner. I mean, this is HN, so probably a subset of top 5% intellectually curious people and people here still know nothing about how this stuff works.
      - FRex 9y ago
        The people care infinitely more about "informational" memes about curvy bananas and conspiracy theories about Muslims and cultural marxism than about who picks who in some EU structure. At the same time even the slightest EU regulations are like communism and even the tiniest enforcement of EU law or solidarity is comparable to an armed invasion on the country's sovereignty. Cases in point are how before downing of MH17 in Ukraine Western European attitudes about sanctioning Russia were "not our problem" and "we would lose money" and how Eastern Europe fought tooth and nail against refugees because "Merkel invited them" and "all Muslims are rapists and terrorists". And to add insult to injury every time European Council or European Parliament does something dumb the EU is being called undemocratic. The democratic care deficit in people is not even EU specific. Turnaround is low all around in various elections and some people don't even know the name of the ruling party, prime minister, president, etc. in their own country. Maybe the EU should actually disband and let Germany steamroll us all yet again. Maybe then people would get it.
- blibble 9y ago
  the EU has a tendency to be where clapped out/disgraced national politicians that are no longer electable in their home countries end up it's a nice place to retire, and pays more than the national office too there's peter mandelson, jean-claude juncker and guy verhofstadt, to name a few
  - Ftuuky 9y ago
    Durão Barroso too.
    - FRex 9y ago
      He was the President of the European Commission which requires approval of European Parliament (elected directly) and European Council (the heads of countries). What the fuck is EU supposed to do with him? Throw him out and tell leaders and directly elected MEPs from 20+ countries to shove it? And who exactly is the EU in that case? Who and how could challenge these decisions while the majority of actual people in Europe don't give enough of a shit about Barroso and elect (if they even go to the elections..) these governments, heads of state and MEPs that put him where he was?
    - B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
      That one actually skipped town while in office to get the job.
  - tormeh 9y ago
    Or they get sent there because they lost a fight in their party: "In Brussels, no one can hear you scream". It's definitely a step down compared to national politics. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Of course, if the EU was more powerful this might attract more up-and-coming politicians, but I don't think that's what people who make this complaint wants.
  - jimnotgym 9y ago
    > no longer electable Guy Verhofstadt is an MEP so was directly elected by his home country. Mandelson and Junker were/are civil servants so wouldn't get elected directly, but appointed by elected politicians. > nice place to retire Or in Mandelson's case a nice place to negotiate a ground-breaking trade deal with India. I'm planning an easier retirement myself. Maybe the UK house of Lords. Unellected clapped out politicians...
jimnotgym 9y ago
It is becoming clear that the UK has a deal with big US tech too. https://waitingfortax.com/2017/06/30/uber-a-new-front/ https://waitingfortax.com/2017/06/30/uber-a-new-front/

jorvi 9y ago

Wouldn't it be much simpler to just require companies to pay taxes in the country their product or service is sold, as a percentage of said product or service? Basically a super sales tax. Right now Italy feels like Luxembourg stole it taxes and meanwhile the US feels like those taxes are actually really theirs since its an US company. For me at least, I feel like this: an iPhone, imported by an Italian company (or subsidiary), sold by an Italian dude working in an Italian mobile phone shop, to an Italian who pays with a €700 transfer from his Italian bank account to the shops' Italian bank account.. the taxes for that should fully go to Italy. Why shouldn't it, except for the fiscal advantages of global companies?

UncleEntity 9y ago
Isn't that what the VAT is for? Honestly asking because US states fall all over themselves to give tax breaks to companies all the time. Hell, even individual cities compete with each other using tax breaks to attract employers. I couldn't even imagine the federal government stepping in and forcing a state to collect more in taxes "to encourage competition".
- nikanj 9y ago
  VAT only applies to consumers, not businesses. To be fair, that seems to be where our corporate tax system is headed anyway: zero rating for the companies, and consumers pay all the taxes.
  - jnordwick 9y ago
    Corporations don't pay taxes in any meanings sense anyways. Individuals always pay for taxes. Owners (lower profits), employees (lower wages and fewer jobs), and consumers (high prices and fewer products) all split the tax burden imposed on a firm.
- cc81 9y ago
  The federal government steps in and collects taxes from the corporations directly instead, right?