4 ms·

While I have no intention of ever getting involved in that way, I disagree.The article I linked gives a good perspective on this: 'They are subtle to the point

While I have no intention of ever getting involved in that way, I disagree.The article I linked gives a good perspective on this: 'They are subtle to the point of near-invisibility. It seems Michael Oreskes liked to kiss women. Now, it is an embarrassing faux-pas to kiss a woman who does not wish to be kissed, but it happens all the time. Kissing a woman is an early stage of courtship. It is one way that men ask the question, “Would you like more?” Courtship is not a phenomenon so minor to our behavioral repertoire that we can readily expunge it from the workplace. It is central to human life. Men and women are attracted to each other; the human race could not perpetuate itself otherwise; and anyone who imagines they will cease to be attracted to each other—or act as if they were not—in the workplace, or any other place, is delusional. Anyone who imagines it is easy for a man to figure out whether a woman might like to be kissed is insane. The difficulty of ascertaining whether one’s passions are reciprocated is the theme of 90 percent of human literature and every romantic comedy or pop song ever written. ' We cannot eliminate and sterilise male-female relationships or pretend they are not different from male-male.

kerpele 9y ago
How about asking before kissing? It is not "embarrassing faux-pas" to kiss a woman who doesn't want it, it is violating their personal space.
- xxs 9y ago
  I suppose that's a joke comment or political correctness out control. Asking prior kissing is likely to kill any romance. The question itself may feel awkward (in my anecdotal 4 women survey). The guy would be considered not confident enough which is good enough reason to be rejected.
  - kuro68k 9y ago
    If you are so concerned about romance you don't even have to ask with words. Just lean in slowly, so it's obvious what you want to do, and check their reaction. Tell us, how do you normally determine if she wants to have sex? Start dry humping her because you are embarrassed to ask?
  - kerpele 9y ago
    Wow. I can't tell if you're a middle-schooler, a troll or Milo. If asking is enough to kill romance then it needs to die in that instance. Try again with someone else and if that someone else actually likes you they'll just think of you as considerate.
  - comstock 9y ago
    If that’s the case then those women are part of the problem. Some people act like the social dynamic where men are sexually agressive is solely the responsibility of men. Most surveys I’ve seen suggest that the majority of women expect men to make the first move (always). This leads to an environment where men are to a degree trained to be sexually agressive. This doesn’t excuse male behavior. But the road to a more balanced society likely requires changes on both sides.
  - lsc 9y ago
    Let us compare this to another crime. So I sometimes keep my wallet on my desk, yes? If some rando comes by and helps themselves to some cash, that's a crime, right? But I'm totally okay with my partner doing that, and there's one or two other people I'd be okay with, too. It is not a crime if one of those people takes the money out of my wallet. But, as it's my wallet, I get to decide who has that privilege. Note, this depends on how I feel, as it's my wallet. Some people would never be okay with others taking money without asking. For me, at least, there's a small group of people I'd be okay with taking my money without asking. Now, let us postulate that you think you are in that group with wallet access, but further postulate that you, in fact, are not. You think that I like you more than I actually like you. Even so, if you "confidently" grab money out of my wallet without asking, you are committing a crime, even if someone else performing the exact same action, someone I liked more, would not be committing a crime. My point here is not to compare kisses to property, of course, but to point out that there are other places in criminal law where the perceptions of the victim and only the perceptions of the victim determine if it is a crime or not. In most of these cases, there's a strong default; by default, it's my wallet, and you can't take the money out without my say-so. By default, it's my body, and you can't touch it in a sexual way without my say so. Yes, you can make your assumptions as to your status, and if you are correct? that's cool. But you do so at your own risk. If you don't want to take that risk, you are free to ask.
    - MandieD 9y ago
      That's a really great metaphor, and really great advice. The next time I deal with a man bemoaning how tricky #metoo has made life, I will put this example to him. If you're not really sure, don't take the risk - ask before taking cash or initiating more an a handshake.
  - vorotato 9y ago
    If asking kills the romance then clearly they don't actually have feelings for you. Speaking as someone who asked, and has had fantastic success.
- bfred_it 9y ago
  Do you really want to ask someone if they want to kiss? What are we becoming? How close are we "Please sign this contract to initiate physical contact"?
  - kerpele 9y ago
    Yes I do. It's called basic decency, and attitudes like yours are a big part of why we are in this mess.
    - bfred_it 9y ago
      There are ways to gauge interest without asking. The classic "getting 70% closer and letting the other person kiss" is one way. I'm not saying people should be able to kiss someone out of the blue, but if it feels like the other person is interested (for example if they reciprocated your flirting) then I don't see the issue with trying. I did ask for a kiss more than once when I was socially inept; it killed the mood every time. Never again. The same people I asked came around later and I had meaningful relationships with them. So don't tell me "attitude like yours" Edit: I should add that different people have different ways to see it, I get that. For example some women might like being asked if they want to split the bill, seeing it as a sign of respect, others might not like it at all. So one has to decide case by case.
- adamcharnock 9y ago
  To me this is a serious comment. In my social circles asking before kissing is the norm. I too thought it would kill the romance, but if anything it amplifies it. In asking you show vulnerability, show that you respect the other person, and when the other person agrees it is pretty great. FWIW - I wouldn't normally say "can I kiss you", I'd normally say something like "Sooo, I'd like to kiss you now" (assuming we'd be chatting for a while). And they'd respond along the lines of "I'd like that too", or "No, but thank you". There is also a secret to be had here – As a man dating women, seeking consent is a secret weapon. It may feel weird to do, but my experience is that women respond exceptionally well to it. As an example, I think the gender balance of our social circles has changed over the last few years. I often find myself to be the only guy around the dinner table. Get consent, treat women as the human beings they are and things will go pretty well. PS. Also, asking is so much easier. Much less dancing around the subject. EDIT: Should probably have been in reply to the the child comment.
  - vostok 9y ago
    Even literally asking "can I kiss you" doesn't have to kill the mood. For instance you can whisper it in your love interest's ear rather than bellow it from across the room. I admit that I have rarely verbally asked, but I think I will do so the next time I have the opportunity to kiss someone outside of my long term relationship. That said, I think you can ask nonverbally as well.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
How are they different? Sorry, but I'm bisexual. I'm attracted to both sexes, and yet I can keep from kissing women or men. I can treat both as friends. I can have respect from both. I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no. I just don't see what the problem is. Don't expect to meet women in public places and men in private ones, for example. IF you won't go out with women after work, don't go with men. And so on.
- reactor4 9y ago
  That's the thing though, the goals are constantly shifting and you cannot make assumptions about how other people are going to react. For example when you say "I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no." I really feel that in the current climate this is a very risky move to make.
- jboles 9y ago
  > I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no. And blammo, there’s your career-destroying sexual harassment accusation against you, in today’s climate.
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    Most people are reasonable, though. A few are not, and there is never a proper defense against them. The sort that retell someone being grouchy as yelling at them, a movement as a threat of violence. Someone that lies obsessively, even in normal conversation. Or the one that feels slighted and says the breaks are unfair, even though they are getting the same as everyone else. Admittedly, asking a woman out is more risky for me since I'm female just as it would with a man asking a man out. That isn't due to sexual harassment, but homophobia. All that said, though, most folks are reasonable to reasonable people who treat them with respect. That's where I'll set the standard for my own behavior and hope for the best.
skookumchuck 9y ago
I've also had women, in an exasperated tone, finally ask me what I am waiting for - to just go for it.

kerpele 9y ago

How about asking before kissing? It is not "embarrassing faux-pas" to kiss a woman who doesn't want it, it is violating their personal space.

xxs 9y ago
I suppose that's a joke comment or political correctness out control. Asking prior kissing is likely to kill any romance. The question itself may feel awkward (in my anecdotal 4 women survey). The guy would be considered not confident enough which is good enough reason to be rejected.
- kuro68k 9y ago
  If you are so concerned about romance you don't even have to ask with words. Just lean in slowly, so it's obvious what you want to do, and check their reaction. Tell us, how do you normally determine if she wants to have sex? Start dry humping her because you are embarrassed to ask?
- kerpele 9y ago
  Wow. I can't tell if you're a middle-schooler, a troll or Milo. If asking is enough to kill romance then it needs to die in that instance. Try again with someone else and if that someone else actually likes you they'll just think of you as considerate.
- comstock 9y ago
  If that’s the case then those women are part of the problem. Some people act like the social dynamic where men are sexually agressive is solely the responsibility of men. Most surveys I’ve seen suggest that the majority of women expect men to make the first move (always). This leads to an environment where men are to a degree trained to be sexually agressive. This doesn’t excuse male behavior. But the road to a more balanced society likely requires changes on both sides.
- lsc 9y ago
  Let us compare this to another crime. So I sometimes keep my wallet on my desk, yes? If some rando comes by and helps themselves to some cash, that's a crime, right? But I'm totally okay with my partner doing that, and there's one or two other people I'd be okay with, too. It is not a crime if one of those people takes the money out of my wallet. But, as it's my wallet, I get to decide who has that privilege. Note, this depends on how I feel, as it's my wallet. Some people would never be okay with others taking money without asking. For me, at least, there's a small group of people I'd be okay with taking my money without asking. Now, let us postulate that you think you are in that group with wallet access, but further postulate that you, in fact, are not. You think that I like you more than I actually like you. Even so, if you "confidently" grab money out of my wallet without asking, you are committing a crime, even if someone else performing the exact same action, someone I liked more, would not be committing a crime. My point here is not to compare kisses to property, of course, but to point out that there are other places in criminal law where the perceptions of the victim and only the perceptions of the victim determine if it is a crime or not. In most of these cases, there's a strong default; by default, it's my wallet, and you can't take the money out without my say-so. By default, it's my body, and you can't touch it in a sexual way without my say so. Yes, you can make your assumptions as to your status, and if you are correct? that's cool. But you do so at your own risk. If you don't want to take that risk, you are free to ask.
  - MandieD 9y ago
    That's a really great metaphor, and really great advice. The next time I deal with a man bemoaning how tricky #metoo has made life, I will put this example to him. If you're not really sure, don't take the risk - ask before taking cash or initiating more an a handshake.
- vorotato 9y ago
  If asking kills the romance then clearly they don't actually have feelings for you. Speaking as someone who asked, and has had fantastic success.
bfred_it 9y ago
Do you really want to ask someone if they want to kiss? What are we becoming? How close are we "Please sign this contract to initiate physical contact"?
- kerpele 9y ago
  Yes I do. It's called basic decency, and attitudes like yours are a big part of why we are in this mess.
  - bfred_it 9y ago
    There are ways to gauge interest without asking. The classic "getting 70% closer and letting the other person kiss" is one way. I'm not saying people should be able to kiss someone out of the blue, but if it feels like the other person is interested (for example if they reciprocated your flirting) then I don't see the issue with trying. I did ask for a kiss more than once when I was socially inept; it killed the mood every time. Never again. The same people I asked came around later and I had meaningful relationships with them. So don't tell me "attitude like yours" Edit: I should add that different people have different ways to see it, I get that. For example some women might like being asked if they want to split the bill, seeing it as a sign of respect, others might not like it at all. So one has to decide case by case.
adamcharnock 9y ago
To me this is a serious comment. In my social circles asking before kissing is the norm. I too thought it would kill the romance, but if anything it amplifies it. In asking you show vulnerability, show that you respect the other person, and when the other person agrees it is pretty great. FWIW - I wouldn't normally say "can I kiss you", I'd normally say something like "Sooo, I'd like to kiss you now" (assuming we'd be chatting for a while). And they'd respond along the lines of "I'd like that too", or "No, but thank you". There is also a secret to be had here – As a man dating women, seeking consent is a secret weapon. It may feel weird to do, but my experience is that women respond exceptionally well to it. As an example, I think the gender balance of our social circles has changed over the last few years. I often find myself to be the only guy around the dinner table. Get consent, treat women as the human beings they are and things will go pretty well. PS. Also, asking is so much easier. Much less dancing around the subject. EDIT: Should probably have been in reply to the the child comment.
- vostok 9y ago
  Even literally asking "can I kiss you" doesn't have to kill the mood. For instance you can whisper it in your love interest's ear rather than bellow it from across the room. I admit that I have rarely verbally asked, but I think I will do so the next time I have the opportunity to kiss someone outside of my long term relationship. That said, I think you can ask nonverbally as well.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

How are they different? Sorry, but I'm bisexual. I'm attracted to both sexes, and yet I can keep from kissing women or men. I can treat both as friends. I can have respect from both. I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no. I just don't see what the problem is. Don't expect to meet women in public places and men in private ones, for example. IF you won't go out with women after work, don't go with men. And so on.

reactor4 9y ago
That's the thing though, the goals are constantly shifting and you cannot make assumptions about how other people are going to react. For example when you say "I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no." I really feel that in the current climate this is a very risky move to make.
jboles 9y ago
> I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no. And blammo, there’s your career-destroying sexual harassment accusation against you, in today’s climate.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  Most people are reasonable, though. A few are not, and there is never a proper defense against them. The sort that retell someone being grouchy as yelling at them, a movement as a threat of violence. Someone that lies obsessively, even in normal conversation. Or the one that feels slighted and says the breaks are unfair, even though they are getting the same as everyone else. Admittedly, asking a woman out is more risky for me since I'm female just as it would with a man asking a man out. That isn't due to sexual harassment, but homophobia. All that said, though, most folks are reasonable to reasonable people who treat them with respect. That's where I'll set the standard for my own behavior and hope for the best.

skookumchuck 9y ago

I've also had women, in an exasperated tone, finally ask me what I am waiting for - to just go for it.