5 ms·

I think that is hyperbole. If you are a man, treat women just like you would treat men. Most men would not try to kiss another man without asking first. Organi

I think that is hyperbole. If you are a man, treat women just like you would treat men. Most men would not try to kiss another man without asking first. Organisations with more women in leadership roles perform better. [1] Which reflects my experience as well. So it isn't only negative from a human point of view to not treat women correctly, it is also a poor business decision. [1] https://hbr.org/2016/02/study-firms-with-more-women-in-the-c-suite-are-more-profitable https://hbr.org/2016/02/study-firms-with-more-women-in-the-c...

naturalgradient 9y ago
While I have no intention of ever getting involved in that way, I disagree.The article I linked gives a good perspective on this: 'They are subtle to the point of near-invisibility. It seems Michael Oreskes liked to kiss women. Now, it is an embarrassing faux-pas to kiss a woman who does not wish to be kissed, but it happens all the time. Kissing a woman is an early stage of courtship. It is one way that men ask the question, “Would you like more?” Courtship is not a phenomenon so minor to our behavioral repertoire that we can readily expunge it from the workplace. It is central to human life. Men and women are attracted to each other; the human race could not perpetuate itself otherwise; and anyone who imagines they will cease to be attracted to each other—or act as if they were not—in the workplace, or any other place, is delusional. Anyone who imagines it is easy for a man to figure out whether a woman might like to be kissed is insane. The difficulty of ascertaining whether one’s passions are reciprocated is the theme of 90 percent of human literature and every romantic comedy or pop song ever written. ' We cannot eliminate and sterilise male-female relationships or pretend they are not different from male-male.
- kerpele 9y ago
  How about asking before kissing? It is not "embarrassing faux-pas" to kiss a woman who doesn't want it, it is violating their personal space.
  - xxs 9y ago
    I suppose that's a joke comment or political correctness out control. Asking prior kissing is likely to kill any romance. The question itself may feel awkward (in my anecdotal 4 women survey). The guy would be considered not confident enough which is good enough reason to be rejected.
    - kuro68k 9y ago
      If you are so concerned about romance you don't even have to ask with words. Just lean in slowly, so it's obvious what you want to do, and check their reaction. Tell us, how do you normally determine if she wants to have sex? Start dry humping her because you are embarrassed to ask?
    - kerpele 9y ago
      Wow. I can't tell if you're a middle-schooler, a troll or Milo. If asking is enough to kill romance then it needs to die in that instance. Try again with someone else and if that someone else actually likes you they'll just think of you as considerate.
    - comstock 9y ago
      If that’s the case then those women are part of the problem. Some people act like the social dynamic where men are sexually agressive is solely the responsibility of men. Most surveys I’ve seen suggest that the majority of women expect men to make the first move (always). This leads to an environment where men are to a degree trained to be sexually agressive. This doesn’t excuse male behavior. But the road to a more balanced society likely requires changes on both sides.
    - lsc 9y ago
      Let us compare this to another crime. So I sometimes keep my wallet on my desk, yes? If some rando comes by and helps themselves to some cash, that's a crime, right? But I'm totally okay with my partner doing that, and there's one or two other people I'd be okay with, too. It is not a crime if one of those people takes the money out of my wallet. But, as it's my wallet, I get to decide who has that privilege. Note, this depends on how I feel, as it's my wallet. Some people would never be okay with others taking money without asking. For me, at least, there's a small group of people I'd be okay with taking my money without asking. Now, let us postulate that you think you are in that group with wallet access, but further postulate that you, in fact, are not. You think that I like you more than I actually like you. Even so, if you "confidently" grab money out of my wallet without asking, you are committing a crime, even if someone else performing the exact same action, someone I liked more, would not be committing a crime. My point here is not to compare kisses to property, of course, but to point out that there are other places in criminal law where the perceptions of the victim and only the perceptions of the victim determine if it is a crime or not. In most of these cases, there's a strong default; by default, it's my wallet, and you can't take the money out without my say-so. By default, it's my body, and you can't touch it in a sexual way without my say so. Yes, you can make your assumptions as to your status, and if you are correct? that's cool. But you do so at your own risk. If you don't want to take that risk, you are free to ask.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  How are they different? Sorry, but I'm bisexual. I'm attracted to both sexes, and yet I can keep from kissing women or men. I can treat both as friends. I can have respect from both. I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no. I just don't see what the problem is. Don't expect to meet women in public places and men in private ones, for example. IF you won't go out with women after work, don't go with men. And so on.
  - reactor4 9y ago
    That's the thing though, the goals are constantly shifting and you cannot make assumptions about how other people are going to react. For example when you say "I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no." I really feel that in the current climate this is a very risky move to make.
  - jboles 9y ago
    > I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no. And blammo, there’s your career-destroying sexual harassment accusation against you, in today’s climate.
    - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
      Most people are reasonable, though. A few are not, and there is never a proper defense against them. The sort that retell someone being grouchy as yelling at them, a movement as a threat of violence. Someone that lies obsessively, even in normal conversation. Or the one that feels slighted and says the breaks are unfair, even though they are getting the same as everyone else. Admittedly, asking a woman out is more risky for me since I'm female just as it would with a man asking a man out. That isn't due to sexual harassment, but homophobia. All that said, though, most folks are reasonable to reasonable people who treat them with respect. That's where I'll set the standard for my own behavior and hope for the best.
- skookumchuck 9y ago
  I've also had women, in an exasperated tone, finally ask me what I am waiting for - to just go for it.
golergka 9y ago
> If you are a man, treat women just like you would treat men. Most men would not try to kiss another man without asking first. You realize that most men are heterosexual (or at least consider themselves so), right? Asking people to treat people of sex that they are sexually interested in as people of sex that they have no interest in is equal to asking people to act as being completely asexual. I sincerely hope that we can end sexual harassment without denying people the right to their sexuality.
- akoncius 9y ago
  but problem is that right now all scandals are like this “male started kissing female without her consent” how is this uncontrollable sexuality ok?
  - golergka 9y ago
    Nohow. Why are you suddenly asking me such a question?
- MandieD 9y ago
  Your right to swing your fist ends with my nose. Your right to touch your lips or hands somewhere ends with the other person's lips/other body parts. You are free to experience and enjoy your heterosexuality, but not free to force any woman to be part of this experience, which you are doing any time you treat a female colleague differently than you would a male colleague. Go experience your sexuality in your free time with other people in their free time. If you think you can only meet women at work or work-related events and only have time to flirt with them there, you spend too much time working.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - golergka 9y ago
    > not free to force any woman to be part of this experience, which you are doing any time you treat a female colleague differently than you would a male colleague I really think you're taking the point a bit too far here. There's plenty of polite and civilized ways of making a romantic advance on a colleague that wouldn't in any way qualify as "forcing" anyone to do something.
peoplewindow 9y ago
I've commented on studies like that on HN before, but you have to read them very carefully. They are invariably written by people who wanted to reach a particular conclusion before they started. In this case there are two problems. 1) They ignored unprofitable companies in their analysis. If more women in leadership roles were to increase the variability of profitability/loss making, their analysis would show only that it increased profitability. 2) Like all such studies they don't restrict to countries that don't have gender quotas. Some rich countries have imposed artificial quotas to get women into leadership roles, e.g. Norway is named in the article. Well, if you take rich successful countries and then force women into leadership roles by legal decree, it will appear that there is a correlation between more women and more success. But it's a correlation/causation problem. I've never seen a study of this issue that didn't strike me as being artificially set up to reach the authors preferred conclusions.

naturalgradient 9y ago

While I have no intention of ever getting involved in that way, I disagree.The article I linked gives a good perspective on this: 'They are subtle to the point of near-invisibility. It seems Michael Oreskes liked to kiss women. Now, it is an embarrassing faux-pas to kiss a woman who does not wish to be kissed, but it happens all the time. Kissing a woman is an early stage of courtship. It is one way that men ask the question, “Would you like more?” Courtship is not a phenomenon so minor to our behavioral repertoire that we can readily expunge it from the workplace. It is central to human life. Men and women are attracted to each other; the human race could not perpetuate itself otherwise; and anyone who imagines they will cease to be attracted to each other—or act as if they were not—in the workplace, or any other place, is delusional. Anyone who imagines it is easy for a man to figure out whether a woman might like to be kissed is insane. The difficulty of ascertaining whether one’s passions are reciprocated is the theme of 90 percent of human literature and every romantic comedy or pop song ever written. ' We cannot eliminate and sterilise male-female relationships or pretend they are not different from male-male.

kerpele 9y ago
How about asking before kissing? It is not "embarrassing faux-pas" to kiss a woman who doesn't want it, it is violating their personal space.
- xxs 9y ago
  I suppose that's a joke comment or political correctness out control. Asking prior kissing is likely to kill any romance. The question itself may feel awkward (in my anecdotal 4 women survey). The guy would be considered not confident enough which is good enough reason to be rejected.
  - kuro68k 9y ago
    If you are so concerned about romance you don't even have to ask with words. Just lean in slowly, so it's obvious what you want to do, and check their reaction. Tell us, how do you normally determine if she wants to have sex? Start dry humping her because you are embarrassed to ask?
  - kerpele 9y ago
    Wow. I can't tell if you're a middle-schooler, a troll or Milo. If asking is enough to kill romance then it needs to die in that instance. Try again with someone else and if that someone else actually likes you they'll just think of you as considerate.
  - comstock 9y ago
    If that’s the case then those women are part of the problem. Some people act like the social dynamic where men are sexually agressive is solely the responsibility of men. Most surveys I’ve seen suggest that the majority of women expect men to make the first move (always). This leads to an environment where men are to a degree trained to be sexually agressive. This doesn’t excuse male behavior. But the road to a more balanced society likely requires changes on both sides.
  - lsc 9y ago
    Let us compare this to another crime. So I sometimes keep my wallet on my desk, yes? If some rando comes by and helps themselves to some cash, that's a crime, right? But I'm totally okay with my partner doing that, and there's one or two other people I'd be okay with, too. It is not a crime if one of those people takes the money out of my wallet. But, as it's my wallet, I get to decide who has that privilege. Note, this depends on how I feel, as it's my wallet. Some people would never be okay with others taking money without asking. For me, at least, there's a small group of people I'd be okay with taking my money without asking. Now, let us postulate that you think you are in that group with wallet access, but further postulate that you, in fact, are not. You think that I like you more than I actually like you. Even so, if you "confidently" grab money out of my wallet without asking, you are committing a crime, even if someone else performing the exact same action, someone I liked more, would not be committing a crime. My point here is not to compare kisses to property, of course, but to point out that there are other places in criminal law where the perceptions of the victim and only the perceptions of the victim determine if it is a crime or not. In most of these cases, there's a strong default; by default, it's my wallet, and you can't take the money out without my say-so. By default, it's my body, and you can't touch it in a sexual way without my say so. Yes, you can make your assumptions as to your status, and if you are correct? that's cool. But you do so at your own risk. If you don't want to take that risk, you are free to ask.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
How are they different? Sorry, but I'm bisexual. I'm attracted to both sexes, and yet I can keep from kissing women or men. I can treat both as friends. I can have respect from both. I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no. I just don't see what the problem is. Don't expect to meet women in public places and men in private ones, for example. IF you won't go out with women after work, don't go with men. And so on.
- reactor4 9y ago
  That's the thing though, the goals are constantly shifting and you cannot make assumptions about how other people are going to react. For example when you say "I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no." I really feel that in the current climate this is a very risky move to make.
- jboles 9y ago
  > I can ask either sex if they are interested in forming a non-business relationship and then go back to a business relationship if they say no. And blammo, there’s your career-destroying sexual harassment accusation against you, in today’s climate.
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    Most people are reasonable, though. A few are not, and there is never a proper defense against them. The sort that retell someone being grouchy as yelling at them, a movement as a threat of violence. Someone that lies obsessively, even in normal conversation. Or the one that feels slighted and says the breaks are unfair, even though they are getting the same as everyone else. Admittedly, asking a woman out is more risky for me since I'm female just as it would with a man asking a man out. That isn't due to sexual harassment, but homophobia. All that said, though, most folks are reasonable to reasonable people who treat them with respect. That's where I'll set the standard for my own behavior and hope for the best.
skookumchuck 9y ago
I've also had women, in an exasperated tone, finally ask me what I am waiting for - to just go for it.

golergka 9y ago

> If you are a man, treat women just like you would treat men. Most men would not try to kiss another man without asking first. You realize that most men are heterosexual (or at least consider themselves so), right? Asking people to treat people of sex that they are sexually interested in as people of sex that they have no interest in is equal to asking people to act as being completely asexual. I sincerely hope that we can end sexual harassment without denying people the right to their sexuality.

akoncius 9y ago
but problem is that right now all scandals are like this “male started kissing female without her consent” how is this uncontrollable sexuality ok?
- golergka 9y ago
  Nohow. Why are you suddenly asking me such a question?
MandieD 9y ago
Your right to swing your fist ends with my nose. Your right to touch your lips or hands somewhere ends with the other person's lips/other body parts. You are free to experience and enjoy your heterosexuality, but not free to force any woman to be part of this experience, which you are doing any time you treat a female colleague differently than you would a male colleague. Go experience your sexuality in your free time with other people in their free time. If you think you can only meet women at work or work-related events and only have time to flirt with them there, you spend too much time working.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- golergka 9y ago
  > not free to force any woman to be part of this experience, which you are doing any time you treat a female colleague differently than you would a male colleague I really think you're taking the point a bit too far here. There's plenty of polite and civilized ways of making a romantic advance on a colleague that wouldn't in any way qualify as "forcing" anyone to do something.

peoplewindow 9y ago

I've commented on studies like that on HN before, but you have to read them very carefully. They are invariably written by people who wanted to reach a particular conclusion before they started. In this case there are two problems. 1) They ignored unprofitable companies in their analysis. If more women in leadership roles were to increase the variability of profitability/loss making, their analysis would show only that it increased profitability. 2) Like all such studies they don't restrict to countries that don't have gender quotas. Some rich countries have imposed artificial quotas to get women into leadership roles, e.g. Norway is named in the article. Well, if you take rich successful countries and then force women into leadership roles by legal decree, it will appear that there is a correlation between more women and more success. But it's a correlation/causation problem. I've never seen a study of this issue that didn't strike me as being artificially set up to reach the authors preferred conclusions.