6 ms·

A relevant take on the metoo debate, although is contains some rather contentious points: https://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/12/06/the-warlock-hunt/ ht

A relevant take on the metoo debate, although is contains some rather contentious points: https://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/12/06/the-warlock-hunt/ https://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/12/06/the-warlock... 'Several cases recently in the headlines are simply baffling. They do not involve the workplace—or vast discrepancies in power—at all. Perhaps there is more to the story, but from what I’ve read, the improprieties committed by the UK’s (now former) Defense Secretary Michael Fallon amount to this: He kissed a journalist—not his employee, and not someone over whom he had power, but another adult in another profession—fifteen years ago. What transmogrified Fallon’s kiss to a crime that cost him his career were these words, and only these words: “I felt humiliated, ashamed.” Had the object of his affection said, “I felt flattered,” there would be no offense. ' I think the chilling effect is already here now. Nobody will say it, nobody would admit to it and commit career suicide, but I have no doubt countless startups, corps, research groups will just not hire any women in the wake of this debate. I am a PhD student and it makes me think about teaching female undergrads at all or taking them on for projects. If I meet female undergrads for teaching, it's already only in public places in the department, never in my office or an actual teaching room. I am not the type who would ever make lewd comments, or anything of the sort, but it does not matter. There are no bonus points for being a good guy, an 'ally'.

tyingq 9y ago
I think that's a valid concern. It tends to be be dismissed these days because the balance was shifted so far away from real victims. The pendulum will likely adjust a bit soon. It is a bit over the top right now. I was recently chided for giving a female acquaintance a weak, "side hug" instead of a "real hug". Probably prompted by a subconscious idea that I need to be careful about that kind of thing.
- kuro68k 9y ago
  In this case the author of the article made an incorrect assumption. There was an imbalance of power. Journalists need access to politicians to do their jobs. They need professional relationships, they need to be at meetings and press events. To an extent they have to humour politicians, and Fallon apparently mistook that for an invitation to kiss her. The pendulum needs to swing a bit further yet I'm afraid.
- bluetonium 9y ago
  It's become Schrödinger's social norms. Keeping your distance? For the exact same social context that could be (A) not invading a woman's space or putting her in an uncomfortable situation or (B) a harmful approach fueled by a paranoic attitude that is unfair to womens' careers. It could be either until a woman observer collapses the wave function.
jstanley 9y ago
Why risk it? For the same reason Islamic extremists shouldn't make you fear all Muslims. A sense of decency and fairness. Edit: you edited your post to remove "why risk it?" which makes my reply look nonsensical.
- Veen 9y ago
  > For the same reason Islamic extremists shouldn't make you fear all Muslims Indeed. And by that same reasoning the fact that a small minority of men behave atrociously shouldn't cast suspicion on all men or empower people to overgeneralize about toxic masculinity or rape culture. Nor should being accused of an offense be considered equivalent to being guilty of an offense (as in this case)
bjelkeman-again 9y ago
I think that is hyperbole. If you are a man, treat women just like you would treat men. Most men would not try to kiss another man without asking first. Organisations with more women in leadership roles perform better. [1] Which reflects my experience as well. So it isn't only negative from a human point of view to not treat women correctly, it is also a poor business decision. [1] https://hbr.org/2016/02/study-firms-with-more-women-in-the-c-suite-are-more-profitable https://hbr.org/2016/02/study-firms-with-more-women-in-the-c...
- naturalgradient 9y ago
  While I have no intention of ever getting involved in that way, I disagree.The article I linked gives a good perspective on this: 'They are subtle to the point of near-invisibility. It seems Michael Oreskes liked to kiss women. Now, it is an embarrassing faux-pas to kiss a woman who does not wish to be kissed, but it happens all the time. Kissing a woman is an early stage of courtship. It is one way that men ask the question, “Would you like more?” Courtship is not a phenomenon so minor to our behavioral repertoire that we can readily expunge it from the workplace. It is central to human life. Men and women are attracted to each other; the human race could not perpetuate itself otherwise; and anyone who imagines they will cease to be attracted to each other—or act as if they were not—in the workplace, or any other place, is delusional. Anyone who imagines it is easy for a man to figure out whether a woman might like to be kissed is insane. The difficulty of ascertaining whether one’s passions are reciprocated is the theme of 90 percent of human literature and every romantic comedy or pop song ever written. ' We cannot eliminate and sterilise male-female relationships or pretend they are not different from male-male.
  - kerpele 9y ago
    How about asking before kissing? It is not "embarrassing faux-pas" to kiss a woman who doesn't want it, it is violating their personal space.
    - xxs 9y ago
      I suppose that's a joke comment or political correctness out control. Asking prior kissing is likely to kill any romance. The question itself may feel awkward (in my anecdotal 4 women survey). The guy would be considered not confident enough which is good enough reason to be rejected.
blattimwind 9y ago
> If I meet female undergrads for teaching, it's already only in public places in the department, never in my office or an actual teaching room. For many years trainee teachers are reminded not to be alone with a pupil (esp. female) in the class room (before or after class to answer questions, for example). There are directives that school administration can't call a student in for an interview (e.g. disciplinary stuff) unless at least two staff people are present and at least one has to be the sex of the student. (This is in not the US). Some companies have de-facto "at least three people" rules.
- Balgair 9y ago
  My SO was a PhD student at a large west coast university and TA'd. This was also the rule/guidelines for them and professors. The 'Pence Rule' has been in effect for a very long time, it turns out. Not that it mattered in the end, this particular University has been embroiled with sexual harassment allegations for a long time too.
vijayr 9y ago
It has already happened with kids - how many men hesitate to become teachers? Even though there are lots of men who want to teach and are good at teaching?
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  I'm not sure if that is what is happening with teachers. Teaching has been a traditionally female role for many decades now - you guessed it, dominated by females especially at lower levels. I'm not sure that this is a cause of hesitation since there is so much societal baggage that comes along with this. Nursing has had much of the same struggle, though I think that used to be male dominated and at some point, switched.
  - peoplewindow 9y ago
    Stories like this surely indicate a non-zero problem with getting men in teaching: https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/no-man-their-right-mind-would-go-teaching-says-geography-teacher https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/no-man-th...
  - ralfn 9y ago
    Yeah for about 2 decades, which is when that non sense started Moms, eventhough all the facts suggest otherwise, assume men abuse children more often than women (even though its the opposite). And ever since the only people teaching young children are mentally challenged girls that wouldn't survive in another city or country for ever a day
    - shiven 9y ago
      >> Moms, eventhough all the facts suggest otherwise, assume men abuse children more often than women (even though its the opposite). Do we have any solid, statistical evidence in support of these claims?
    - blattimwind 9y ago
      > Teaching has been a traditionally female role for many decades now > Yeah for about 2 decades I can confirm that for where I live, I've seen the statistics (they're probably public anyway), %male trainee teachers plummeted since the mid 90s across the board. Today the female/male ratio is somewhere between 30 to 1.5. Now, he is correct that the most extreme ratio occurs in primary school and the two basic school tiers, but it's still something like 2.5:1 in higher school. If I remember correctly the most balanced school form is vocational school where it's "only" like 3:2. And in kindergartens some parents won't even accept male staff. (Other parents start to demand male staff) Similar issues are on the other side of the interaction. Disciplinary action in schools hits - for all intents and purposes - exclusively male students. Male students at universities and FHs take somewhere between one and four semesters longer to complete their studies than their female fellows. Dropouts and non-participating students are overwhelmingly male across all school forms.
ZeroGravitas 9y ago
An internal document leaked that listed the Conservative party's internal investigations into their members' potential scandals. Micheal Fallon had several items listed, none of which were about kissing a journalist. Now, I can't guarantee the veracity of that document but Fallon could just be seizing on a relatively harmless accusation to make his exit and hoping that reduces the chances of other things blowing up. Similar to that Congressman who quit because he'd discussed surrogacy with his staff. But not being clear he'd offered them money to have sex with him.
pavlov 9y ago
Why does the chilling effect work only against women? Why don't the decision makers at those countless startups, corps and research groups say: "We should probably not hire any men from now on because so many of them are sexual predators." If you think that would be a completely unreasonable response to #metoo, maybe reconsider your position against working with women in the same light?
- peoplewindow 9y ago
  Because the decision makers in those groups are primarily men themselves. Also: they do not believe the accusations are all genuine.
  - pavlov 9y ago
    My issue is with the poster's intention to not work with women in light of the sexual harassment scandals. That response seems completely out of proportion. Men don't get discriminated against based on the actions of a small minority. For example, male employees regularly download porn on work computers and expose the network to malware. Some store child porn on company networks, which can expose the organization to severe consequences (there are many court cases documenting this kind of behavior). Yet the risk of hiring a horny man never comes up in recruitment. If women are portrayed as unreliable employees because they supposedly invent sexual harassment charges, it seems fair to avoid men because almost all child pornographers are male.
    - peoplewindow 9y ago
      it seems fair to avoid men because almost all child pornographers are male. Paedophilia is quite common amongst women, it just tends not be called that. Search the newspapers for stories of female teachers sleeping with under-age male pupils and you will encounter many such stories. So this claim seems rather outrageous and also false. If you can't find any such stories I will be happy to provide example links later.
      - pavlov 9y ago
daleharvey 9y ago
You are defending your discrimination because women are speaking our about sexual abuse? then you call yourself a good guy / ally? lol don't change hacker news A Cabinet minister is in a huge position of power over a junior journalist and there was a large number of complaints against him including by other MPs
- naturalgradient 9y ago
  And you are virtue signalling by taking my comment ad absurdum and describing a situation to which nobody could reasonably respond with 'no'. Think about this and the divisiveness of this debate. In phrasing like yours, no grey areas exist. It is the bad versus the good. Read the actual article I linked written by a woman (identity politics makes me say this, because as a woman she has more voice than I). I am describing a chilling effect and a reaction I observe in myself and suspect in others, you respond with 'How dare you' in an outraged attempt to silence a debate. What is this contributing other than making yourself feel good about your righteousness?
skookumchuck 9y ago
Another thing I notice is that sometimes the condemnations remark that the perpetrator was old, ugly, gross, and/or bald. The implication is that it's ok to be aggressive if you're handsome.
- rootlocus 9y ago
  Well of course it's relative. Some things you like, some things you don't. When someone attractive makes a gesture, you're more inclined to be flattered.
  - jboles 9y ago
    It exposes the accusation as being spurious and impetuous, and the accuser as being shallow, though, because whether the ‘crime’ actually occurred or not is now dependent on how attractive the woman judged the man to be.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      That they mention the physical appearance doesn't mean they wouldn't have accused anyway. And it certainly does not mean the accusation is spurious. A crime is a crime even if you don't like the moral character of the victim.
      - jboles 9y ago
        But it’s not a crime as established by a criminal conviction, hence the quotes where I use that word. It’s treatment as a criminal by (fairly, or unfairly) passing moral judgement with a desire that others do the same — no better than a lynch mob. Or, as the article puts it, a witch hunt. That it relates to physical appearance makes it all the more ridiculous a proposition. The accused was guilty in part because they were not deemed attractive enough by the accuser. If not the case, why even bring up the accused’s appearance given the supposed gravity of the alleged ‘crime’?
    - rootlocus 9y ago
      I don't think so. It's a crime to do something (to me) against my will. And I decide what I want and don't want other people to do to me (my will is subjective). If an attractive person kisses me out of the blue, I might enjoy it, and it's not a crime by any definition. If I didn't like the other person, I didn't want them to kiss me, and the accusation is fair.
didibus 9y ago
The chilling effect, but not the reasonable assessment. The occurrence are still very rare, the total number of people who lost their careers to accusations over those who didn't is probably in the .1% and lower. Also, if any of the accused are guilty, losing your powerful job is a pretty small punishment. What does need to happen though, for everyone's sake, is a discernment between levels of gravity. All news of sexual misconduct shouldn't give the same reaction to the public. And on that I think we agree. That said, its normal now to have the pendulum swing a bit more one side, everyone is finally for the first time in a place where they feel they can voice their agony, after years of silence. Personally, I think all of this is great, and will hopefully create a better society. In 10 years, I think that discernment will be established, but speaking up about such issues will have become more accepted, and victims would come forward quicker, allowing normal justice to take place.
austincheney 9y ago
> I think the chilling effect is already here now. Nobody will say it, nobody would admit to it and commit career suicide, but I have no doubt countless startups, corps, research groups will just not hire any women in the wake of this debate. I don't think that is probable unless you are a man who has a sexual problem and fears reprisal, which is somebody toxic trying to hide. Just to clarify sexual harassment isn't something confined to men in power and isn't just a women's problem. This is stupid easy. Don't make sexual advances at work. Not even it is just joking around. Don't touch your coworks on the ass, kiss them, or any other anything else like that. Any form of affection should be something that is ok in front of your spouse and the news media. If you do fear reprisal then always meet with your coworkers in public spaces, with doors open, and ensure a third party is in view. Don't hide anything. Again, stupid simple. If after that you are still afraid then just be unemployed, because you shouldn't be around other people.
- dozzie 9y ago
  > This is stupid easy. Don't make sexual advances at work. Yet if you're a male, you can still end up falsely accused of sexual harassment, because she didn't like you, she wants your position, she misunderstood you, or she was just a bitch who likes undeserved attention, ruining somebody's life in the process. There were examples of that, and while I don't claim they were numerous, they are the source of the chilling effect.
  - austincheney 9y ago
    > Yet if you're a male, you can still end up falsely accused of sexual harassment Historically, this is exceedingly rare. Nobody wants the negative attention that comes from exposure of a false allegation.
    - fgjjgutjvnu 9y ago
      Would you say it is exceedingly rare that rape victims are not believed? How do you distinguish the two?
    - 9y ago
dylanh 9y ago
Nobody is going to feel flattered by being kissed without consent.
- ToFundorNot 9y ago
  There are women/men that are flattered/aroused when kissed without consent. This is the crux of the problem, some of these people have done the exact action many times before with positive outcomes. Those complainants may be outliers or they may be the majority, it's up to the organization to properly research which is the case and act accordingly (ie, apology, or firing). Everyone has different wants and expectations.
  - dylanh 9y ago
    Consent is not negotiable. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/bdsm-consent https://www.teenvogue.com/story/bdsm-consent
johnchristopher 9y ago
Wait > I am a PhD student and it makes me think about teaching female undergrads at all or taking them on for projects. If I meet female undergrads for teaching, it's already only in public places in the department, never in my office or an actual teaching room. I am not the type who would ever make lewd comments, or anything of the sort, but it does not matter. There are no bonus points for being a good guy, an 'ally'. The article is about a man claiming he was sexually harassed. Why do you consider only female in your scenario ?

tyingq 9y ago

I think that's a valid concern. It tends to be be dismissed these days because the balance was shifted so far away from real victims. The pendulum will likely adjust a bit soon. It is a bit over the top right now. I was recently chided for giving a female acquaintance a weak, "side hug" instead of a "real hug". Probably prompted by a subconscious idea that I need to be careful about that kind of thing.

kuro68k 9y ago
In this case the author of the article made an incorrect assumption. There was an imbalance of power. Journalists need access to politicians to do their jobs. They need professional relationships, they need to be at meetings and press events. To an extent they have to humour politicians, and Fallon apparently mistook that for an invitation to kiss her. The pendulum needs to swing a bit further yet I'm afraid.
bluetonium 9y ago
It's become Schrödinger's social norms. Keeping your distance? For the exact same social context that could be (A) not invading a woman's space or putting her in an uncomfortable situation or (B) a harmful approach fueled by a paranoic attitude that is unfair to womens' careers. It could be either until a woman observer collapses the wave function.

jstanley 9y ago

Why risk it? For the same reason Islamic extremists shouldn't make you fear all Muslims. A sense of decency and fairness. Edit: you edited your post to remove "why risk it?" which makes my reply look nonsensical.

Veen 9y ago
> For the same reason Islamic extremists shouldn't make you fear all Muslims Indeed. And by that same reasoning the fact that a small minority of men behave atrociously shouldn't cast suspicion on all men or empower people to overgeneralize about toxic masculinity or rape culture. Nor should being accused of an offense be considered equivalent to being guilty of an offense (as in this case)

bjelkeman-again 9y ago

I think that is hyperbole. If you are a man, treat women just like you would treat men. Most men would not try to kiss another man without asking first. Organisations with more women in leadership roles perform better. [1] Which reflects my experience as well. So it isn't only negative from a human point of view to not treat women correctly, it is also a poor business decision. [1] https://hbr.org/2016/02/study-firms-with-more-women-in-the-c-suite-are-more-profitable https://hbr.org/2016/02/study-firms-with-more-women-in-the-c...

naturalgradient 9y ago
While I have no intention of ever getting involved in that way, I disagree.The article I linked gives a good perspective on this: 'They are subtle to the point of near-invisibility. It seems Michael Oreskes liked to kiss women. Now, it is an embarrassing faux-pas to kiss a woman who does not wish to be kissed, but it happens all the time. Kissing a woman is an early stage of courtship. It is one way that men ask the question, “Would you like more?” Courtship is not a phenomenon so minor to our behavioral repertoire that we can readily expunge it from the workplace. It is central to human life. Men and women are attracted to each other; the human race could not perpetuate itself otherwise; and anyone who imagines they will cease to be attracted to each other—or act as if they were not—in the workplace, or any other place, is delusional. Anyone who imagines it is easy for a man to figure out whether a woman might like to be kissed is insane. The difficulty of ascertaining whether one’s passions are reciprocated is the theme of 90 percent of human literature and every romantic comedy or pop song ever written. ' We cannot eliminate and sterilise male-female relationships or pretend they are not different from male-male.
- kerpele 9y ago
  How about asking before kissing? It is not "embarrassing faux-pas" to kiss a woman who doesn't want it, it is violating their personal space.
  - xxs 9y ago
    I suppose that's a joke comment or political correctness out control. Asking prior kissing is likely to kill any romance. The question itself may feel awkward (in my anecdotal 4 women survey). The guy would be considered not confident enough which is good enough reason to be rejected.

blattimwind 9y ago

> If I meet female undergrads for teaching, it's already only in public places in the department, never in my office or an actual teaching room. For many years trainee teachers are reminded not to be alone with a pupil (esp. female) in the class room (before or after class to answer questions, for example). There are directives that school administration can't call a student in for an interview (e.g. disciplinary stuff) unless at least two staff people are present and at least one has to be the sex of the student. (This is in not the US). Some companies have de-facto "at least three people" rules.

Balgair 9y ago
My SO was a PhD student at a large west coast university and TA'd. This was also the rule/guidelines for them and professors. The 'Pence Rule' has been in effect for a very long time, it turns out. Not that it mattered in the end, this particular University has been embroiled with sexual harassment allegations for a long time too.

vijayr 9y ago

It has already happened with kids - how many men hesitate to become teachers? Even though there are lots of men who want to teach and are good at teaching?

Broken_Hippo 9y ago
I'm not sure if that is what is happening with teachers. Teaching has been a traditionally female role for many decades now - you guessed it, dominated by females especially at lower levels. I'm not sure that this is a cause of hesitation since there is so much societal baggage that comes along with this. Nursing has had much of the same struggle, though I think that used to be male dominated and at some point, switched.
- peoplewindow 9y ago
  Stories like this surely indicate a non-zero problem with getting men in teaching: https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/no-man-their-right-mind-would-go-teaching-says-geography-teacher https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/no-man-th...
- ralfn 9y ago
  Yeah for about 2 decades, which is when that non sense started Moms, eventhough all the facts suggest otherwise, assume men abuse children more often than women (even though its the opposite). And ever since the only people teaching young children are mentally challenged girls that wouldn't survive in another city or country for ever a day
  - shiven 9y ago
    >> Moms, eventhough all the facts suggest otherwise, assume men abuse children more often than women (even though its the opposite). Do we have any solid, statistical evidence in support of these claims?
  - blattimwind 9y ago
    > Teaching has been a traditionally female role for many decades now > Yeah for about 2 decades I can confirm that for where I live, I've seen the statistics (they're probably public anyway), %male trainee teachers plummeted since the mid 90s across the board. Today the female/male ratio is somewhere between 30 to 1.5. Now, he is correct that the most extreme ratio occurs in primary school and the two basic school tiers, but it's still something like 2.5:1 in higher school. If I remember correctly the most balanced school form is vocational school where it's "only" like 3:2. And in kindergartens some parents won't even accept male staff. (Other parents start to demand male staff) Similar issues are on the other side of the interaction. Disciplinary action in schools hits - for all intents and purposes - exclusively male students. Male students at universities and FHs take somewhere between one and four semesters longer to complete their studies than their female fellows. Dropouts and non-participating students are overwhelmingly male across all school forms.

ZeroGravitas 9y ago

An internal document leaked that listed the Conservative party's internal investigations into their members' potential scandals. Micheal Fallon had several items listed, none of which were about kissing a journalist. Now, I can't guarantee the veracity of that document but Fallon could just be seizing on a relatively harmless accusation to make his exit and hoping that reduces the chances of other things blowing up. Similar to that Congressman who quit because he'd discussed surrogacy with his staff. But not being clear he'd offered them money to have sex with him.

pavlov 9y ago

Why does the chilling effect work only against women? Why don't the decision makers at those countless startups, corps and research groups say: "We should probably not hire any men from now on because so many of them are sexual predators." If you think that would be a completely unreasonable response to #metoo, maybe reconsider your position against working with women in the same light?

peoplewindow 9y ago
Because the decision makers in those groups are primarily men themselves. Also: they do not believe the accusations are all genuine.
- pavlov 9y ago
  My issue is with the poster's intention to not work with women in light of the sexual harassment scandals. That response seems completely out of proportion. Men don't get discriminated against based on the actions of a small minority. For example, male employees regularly download porn on work computers and expose the network to malware. Some store child porn on company networks, which can expose the organization to severe consequences (there are many court cases documenting this kind of behavior). Yet the risk of hiring a horny man never comes up in recruitment. If women are portrayed as unreliable employees because they supposedly invent sexual harassment charges, it seems fair to avoid men because almost all child pornographers are male.
  - peoplewindow 9y ago
    it seems fair to avoid men because almost all child pornographers are male. Paedophilia is quite common amongst women, it just tends not be called that. Search the newspapers for stories of female teachers sleeping with under-age male pupils and you will encounter many such stories. So this claim seems rather outrageous and also false. If you can't find any such stories I will be happy to provide example links later.
    - pavlov 9y ago

daleharvey 9y ago

You are defending your discrimination because women are speaking our about sexual abuse? then you call yourself a good guy / ally? lol don't change hacker news A Cabinet minister is in a huge position of power over a junior journalist and there was a large number of complaints against him including by other MPs

naturalgradient 9y ago
And you are virtue signalling by taking my comment ad absurdum and describing a situation to which nobody could reasonably respond with 'no'. Think about this and the divisiveness of this debate. In phrasing like yours, no grey areas exist. It is the bad versus the good. Read the actual article I linked written by a woman (identity politics makes me say this, because as a woman she has more voice than I). I am describing a chilling effect and a reaction I observe in myself and suspect in others, you respond with 'How dare you' in an outraged attempt to silence a debate. What is this contributing other than making yourself feel good about your righteousness?

skookumchuck 9y ago

Another thing I notice is that sometimes the condemnations remark that the perpetrator was old, ugly, gross, and/or bald. The implication is that it's ok to be aggressive if you're handsome.

rootlocus 9y ago
Well of course it's relative. Some things you like, some things you don't. When someone attractive makes a gesture, you're more inclined to be flattered.
- jboles 9y ago
  It exposes the accusation as being spurious and impetuous, and the accuser as being shallow, though, because whether the ‘crime’ actually occurred or not is now dependent on how attractive the woman judged the man to be.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    That they mention the physical appearance doesn't mean they wouldn't have accused anyway. And it certainly does not mean the accusation is spurious. A crime is a crime even if you don't like the moral character of the victim.
    - jboles 9y ago
      But it’s not a crime as established by a criminal conviction, hence the quotes where I use that word. It’s treatment as a criminal by (fairly, or unfairly) passing moral judgement with a desire that others do the same — no better than a lynch mob. Or, as the article puts it, a witch hunt. That it relates to physical appearance makes it all the more ridiculous a proposition. The accused was guilty in part because they were not deemed attractive enough by the accuser. If not the case, why even bring up the accused’s appearance given the supposed gravity of the alleged ‘crime’?
  - rootlocus 9y ago
    I don't think so. It's a crime to do something (to me) against my will. And I decide what I want and don't want other people to do to me (my will is subjective). If an attractive person kisses me out of the blue, I might enjoy it, and it's not a crime by any definition. If I didn't like the other person, I didn't want them to kiss me, and the accusation is fair.

didibus 9y ago

The chilling effect, but not the reasonable assessment. The occurrence are still very rare, the total number of people who lost their careers to accusations over those who didn't is probably in the .1% and lower. Also, if any of the accused are guilty, losing your powerful job is a pretty small punishment. What does need to happen though, for everyone's sake, is a discernment between levels of gravity. All news of sexual misconduct shouldn't give the same reaction to the public. And on that I think we agree. That said, its normal now to have the pendulum swing a bit more one side, everyone is finally for the first time in a place where they feel they can voice their agony, after years of silence. Personally, I think all of this is great, and will hopefully create a better society. In 10 years, I think that discernment will be established, but speaking up about such issues will have become more accepted, and victims would come forward quicker, allowing normal justice to take place.

austincheney 9y ago

> I think the chilling effect is already here now. Nobody will say it, nobody would admit to it and commit career suicide, but I have no doubt countless startups, corps, research groups will just not hire any women in the wake of this debate. I don't think that is probable unless you are a man who has a sexual problem and fears reprisal, which is somebody toxic trying to hide. Just to clarify sexual harassment isn't something confined to men in power and isn't just a women's problem. This is stupid easy. Don't make sexual advances at work. Not even it is just joking around. Don't touch your coworks on the ass, kiss them, or any other anything else like that. Any form of affection should be something that is ok in front of your spouse and the news media. If you do fear reprisal then always meet with your coworkers in public spaces, with doors open, and ensure a third party is in view. Don't hide anything. Again, stupid simple. If after that you are still afraid then just be unemployed, because you shouldn't be around other people.

dozzie 9y ago
> This is stupid easy. Don't make sexual advances at work. Yet if you're a male, you can still end up falsely accused of sexual harassment, because she didn't like you, she wants your position, she misunderstood you, or she was just a bitch who likes undeserved attention, ruining somebody's life in the process. There were examples of that, and while I don't claim they were numerous, they are the source of the chilling effect.
- austincheney 9y ago
  > Yet if you're a male, you can still end up falsely accused of sexual harassment Historically, this is exceedingly rare. Nobody wants the negative attention that comes from exposure of a false allegation.
  - fgjjgutjvnu 9y ago
    Would you say it is exceedingly rare that rape victims are not believed? How do you distinguish the two?
  - 9y ago

dylanh 9y ago

Nobody is going to feel flattered by being kissed without consent.

ToFundorNot 9y ago
There are women/men that are flattered/aroused when kissed without consent. This is the crux of the problem, some of these people have done the exact action many times before with positive outcomes. Those complainants may be outliers or they may be the majority, it's up to the organization to properly research which is the case and act accordingly (ie, apology, or firing). Everyone has different wants and expectations.
- dylanh 9y ago
  Consent is not negotiable. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/bdsm-consent https://www.teenvogue.com/story/bdsm-consent

johnchristopher 9y ago

Wait > I am a PhD student and it makes me think about teaching female undergrads at all or taking them on for projects. If I meet female undergrads for teaching, it's already only in public places in the department, never in my office or an actual teaching room. I am not the type who would ever make lewd comments, or anything of the sort, but it does not matter. There are no bonus points for being a good guy, an 'ally'. The article is about a man claiming he was sexually harassed. Why do you consider only female in your scenario ?