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> I think what is reasonable to say is that while we are all created equal in the sense that we are human, that's far as as natural equality extends. Some of us

> I think what is reasonable to say is that while we are all created equal in the sense that we are human, that's far as as natural equality extends. Some of us are taller, shorter, we have different interests, etc. Your observation that "humans aren't all the same" is orthogonal to the ideal that humans should be treated equally despite their physical characteristics which are outside of their control. I cannot control what gender, sexual orientation, or ethnicity I'm born as, and you should not assume anything about my abilities based on those characteristics. Good and bad are things we decide together because we're stuck living together; that's what society is. Equality is something a lot of us decide is good. It's not "natural" but that doesn't make it bad. I think it's good to aspire for a more equitable society. Racism is bad exactly because it assumes things about people based on a physical characteristic outside of their control (skin color). That concept is general. > > Or should government (a set of formalized rules and people who enforce them) attempt to equalize the playing field, and thus treat us all unequally? Equalizing the playing field does not "treat us all unequally." That's the point of equalizing. A government trying to equalize the playing field is a government that acknowledges the playing field is already unfair. If you're born rich you are already advantaged. If you're born white you're already advantaged. Government is within its rights to say "oh shit 1% of the citizens who participate in this system have disproportionate power compared to the vast majority; we should equalize it so everyone can have a better life." << This is what a progressive income tax is for. > In your own example, by ensuring in your model safety for women, we must treat men differently from women, and therefore ensure that for women to be safer, men must be less free. Wrong. By ensuring model safety for women, we must hold them to the same standards that we hold women to. Both women and men who harass people should be ostracized. Historically only women had to bear the burden of "how do I come across" because of men. Today men should equally bear the same burden and be responsible for how their words and actions make others feel. Men aren't "less free" in this model, they just have to be "more responsible." A level of responsibility women have already been forced to have. E.g why is it that women have to watch what they wear? Feminists aspire to a world where men should not assault or harass women, regardless of what they wear. We should all be equally responsible for our own behavior. > government is at least in theory a set of formalized rules intended to reflect what the informal rules of society are Agreed, this is a fact. Which is exactly why people who seek equality lobby government to update laws, to reflect our evolved societal norms. Laws should protect LGBTQ from discimination in the workplace for example, and help bridge the pay gap for women in the workplace. Laws were responsible for first freeing slaves in the US and then ensuring equal rights.

aestetix 9y ago
>"Your observation that "humans aren't all the same" is orthogonal to the ideal that humans should be treated equally despite their physical characteristics which are outside of their control. I cannot control what gender, sexual orientation, or ethnicity I'm born as, and you should not assume anything about my abilities based on those characteristics." Maybe you misunderstand my point. I mean that humans are all the same in the way that there is a Platonic form "human", which manifests itself in different ways. So one could say that they are all the same in that they share in humanity, and differ in application. I'm far more interested in a system that focuses on the common humanity than whether someone is tall or short. >"Equalizing the playing field does not "treat us all unequally." That's the point of equalizing. A government trying to equalize the playing field is a government that acknowledges the playing field is already unfair. If you're born rich you are already advantaged. If you're born white you're already advantaged. Government is within its rights to say "oh shit 1% of the citizens who participate in this system have disproportionate power compared to the vast majority; we should equalize it so everyone can have a better life." << This is what a progressive income tax is for." I very strongly disagree with this. I believe a government should equalize the playing field by focusing exclusively on the platonic form "human" rather than whether someone is tall or short. I think it is reasonable to say that someone's background might play a role in how they wind up, but it is by no means conclusive. I'm all about creating opportunities for people who work hard, such as scholarships for people who meet all standards for school except financial, but all those opportunities require someone to voluntarily choose that path. These points, as well as the progressive income tax, ultimately lead to the tax dodges and loopholes that rich people slip into the system to get around them. They punish people who honestly work hard and reward the crooked. >"Wrong. By ensuring model safety for women, we must hold them to the same standards that we hold women to. Both women and men who harass people should be ostracized. Historically only women had to bear the burden of "how do I come across" because of men. Today men should equally bear the same burden and be responsible for how their words and actions make others feel." And how precisely can you ensure their "safety"? I'm a huge fan of individual empowerment, but not of infantilization. I'm not in favor of protecting anyone but myself unless the other people ask for it. It begins a slippery slope that leads to a boy in the bubble effect, which the helicopter parents of the 90s/00s, tried, which IMHO is one of the major factors that has lead to the mess of "safe space" nonsense on college campuses to begin with. I have more opinions on this topic, but I defer to Camille Paglia, who is far more eloquent than me. >"Agreed, this is a fact. Which is exactly why people who seek equality lobby government to update laws, to reflect our evolved societal norms. Laws should protect LGBTQ from discimination in the workplace for example, and help bridge the pay gap for women in the workplace. Laws were responsible for first freeing slaves in the US and then ensuring equal rights." This sounds like a reasoning that we need more laws to fix injustices, which implies that laws are reactions to said injustices. Shouldn't laws be elaborations of first principles upon which a society has agreed? Otherwise we get a long list of laws that become out of date, and a government which no longer reflects the society it is supposed to represent.

aestetix 9y ago

>"Your observation that "humans aren't all the same" is orthogonal to the ideal that humans should be treated equally despite their physical characteristics which are outside of their control. I cannot control what gender, sexual orientation, or ethnicity I'm born as, and you should not assume anything about my abilities based on those characteristics." Maybe you misunderstand my point. I mean that humans are all the same in the way that there is a Platonic form "human", which manifests itself in different ways. So one could say that they are all the same in that they share in humanity, and differ in application. I'm far more interested in a system that focuses on the common humanity than whether someone is tall or short. >"Equalizing the playing field does not "treat us all unequally." That's the point of equalizing. A government trying to equalize the playing field is a government that acknowledges the playing field is already unfair. If you're born rich you are already advantaged. If you're born white you're already advantaged. Government is within its rights to say "oh shit 1% of the citizens who participate in this system have disproportionate power compared to the vast majority; we should equalize it so everyone can have a better life." << This is what a progressive income tax is for." I very strongly disagree with this. I believe a government should equalize the playing field by focusing exclusively on the platonic form "human" rather than whether someone is tall or short. I think it is reasonable to say that someone's background might play a role in how they wind up, but it is by no means conclusive. I'm all about creating opportunities for people who work hard, such as scholarships for people who meet all standards for school except financial, but all those opportunities require someone to voluntarily choose that path. These points, as well as the progressive income tax, ultimately lead to the tax dodges and loopholes that rich people slip into the system to get around them. They punish people who honestly work hard and reward the crooked. >"Wrong. By ensuring model safety for women, we must hold them to the same standards that we hold women to. Both women and men who harass people should be ostracized. Historically only women had to bear the burden of "how do I come across" because of men. Today men should equally bear the same burden and be responsible for how their words and actions make others feel." And how precisely can you ensure their "safety"? I'm a huge fan of individual empowerment, but not of infantilization. I'm not in favor of protecting anyone but myself unless the other people ask for it. It begins a slippery slope that leads to a boy in the bubble effect, which the helicopter parents of the 90s/00s, tried, which IMHO is one of the major factors that has lead to the mess of "safe space" nonsense on college campuses to begin with. I have more opinions on this topic, but I defer to Camille Paglia, who is far more eloquent than me. >"Agreed, this is a fact. Which is exactly why people who seek equality lobby government to update laws, to reflect our evolved societal norms. Laws should protect LGBTQ from discimination in the workplace for example, and help bridge the pay gap for women in the workplace. Laws were responsible for first freeing slaves in the US and then ensuring equal rights." This sounds like a reasoning that we need more laws to fix injustices, which implies that laws are reactions to said injustices. Shouldn't laws be elaborations of first principles upon which a society has agreed? Otherwise we get a long list of laws that become out of date, and a government which no longer reflects the society it is supposed to represent.