5 ms·

I initially laughed at Pence as described in this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/30/mike-pence-doesnt-dine-alone-with-other-wom

I initially laughed at Pence as described in this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/30/mike-pence-doesnt-dine-alone-with-other-women-and-were-all-shocked/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/30/mi... Now I think he might have been on to something. Is it really common to go swimming at a conference with others attendees of a different sex? Crazy parties with booze et al at a conference like NIPS? What is going on here? Why even have these non-professional outlets, distracting from the professionalism of the conferences themselves?

rawnlq 9y ago
I am really worried about this unintended consequence of self-segregation. This is us going backwards. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/upshot/as-sexual-harassment-scandals-spook-men-it-can-backfire-for-women.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/upshot/as-sexual-harassme... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opposite-sex-at-work-gender-study.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opp...
discoursism 9y ago
A lot of conferences occur at hotels, and most hotels do not have gender segregated pools. So if you fancy a dip and you're at a conference, you're likely going to be swimming with colleagues and counterparts of all genders.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
freedomben 9y ago
I thought Pence was being a bit ridiculous as well, but now seeing what is happening I'm beginning to think there's great wisdom in it.
- danso 9y ago
  And then we wonder why women feel there's a glass ceiling blocking them from advancing
  - watwut 9y ago
    Because when dude touches women without her consent, it is reasonable to exclude women from networking occasion. /logic
  - Noos 9y ago
    There is a glass ceiling because due to the potential of sexual relationships and misconduct, workplace relations between men and women must be formal. The type of informality men use with other men in the workplace isn't particularly possible between men and women. And that informal mentorship or aspect to work tends to be what drives a lot of advancement. It's an argument that informal aspects to career success need to be minimized in general. It has other aspects beyond that...all the bullshit of placating or being a puppy dog for your founder or boss in the name of networking, or success too often being who can put a good word in for you rather than a good record sucks.
- frabbit 9y ago
  Let's turn it into some folk wisdom: "It's a rule: if you're a rapey kinda fool, stay out of the pool."
Eridrus 9y ago
I don't think it's common, but if you host NIPS in a city with a beach (hey long beach), you may at some point want to go for a swim, and it seems pretty easy to go for a swim without getting handsy. Parties with free booze seem common to most industries with money sloshing about, there was definitely free booze for everyone who wanted some every night, including at the conference venue. I don't think the Pence rule is necessary or helpful, I would say avoiding sexual relationships in work situations is probably a good idea in industries with highly skewed gender ratios, but many people complain that just doing that is too high a burden.
- hydrox24 9y ago
  > "I don't think the Pence rule is necessary or helpful" It isn't necessary for most people in most industries, but it is a rule that some men may need more than others. That is a matter of personal judgement. It is also a rule for a man who wields significant power, which requires stronger boundaries to be put in place. Pence is wise to take extreme steps, but most people aren't the US Vice-President, and don't need to go to the same extremes.
pkd 9y ago
Or maybe he's not onto something and it's totally possible to not be an asshole and try to take advantage of the situation when left alone with a person of the other sex? I don't see how Pence's comment makes any good sense. If you do what he says, you either: - Don't trust yourself (or don't care) to demonstrate appropriate behavior - Don't trust women to respect you if you respect them back.
- freedomben 9y ago
  I tend to believe that women are people, and that not all people will respect you if you respect them back. Also you have presented a classic example of the fallacy of false dilemma. There are other options, such as: - Worry about false accusations, particularly when you are a person of high power where political stakes are high (and politics bring out the worst in people) - Are big into risk reduction/minimization. It is undeniable that it is less risky from an allegation standpoint to follow the "Pence rule" That said, I think the "Pence rule" isn't all good because it has room for unfairness. For example, much business is conducted over meals while traveling. Meals and other outings can be great ways to get to know your boss, subordinates, and other coworkers. If one goes out to dinner with only male coworkers, that is unfair to women in the workplace, particularly when that person is the boss. For that reason I think if one follows "the Pence rule" they need to have the same standard with people from all genders, so never go to dinner one-on-one with another man if they wouldn't do so with a woman. I'm really whipping a dead horse here, sorry.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    While I agree with your assertion, with regarding equality that one should not go to meal with anyone else following the Pence rule, however there is something I think you're not taking in consideration. Right now, socially-wise, women have the upper hand on making claims of sexual harassment. The same power does not go to men. This imbalance makes the "Pence Rule" make more sense.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
halfjoking 9y ago
Yep - a pool party with professional women at a conference is just asking for trouble. If you don't invite them you're being "exclusionary." If you do invite them, then 7 years later when you're about to be appointed to the board of directors she writes a blog post about how you drunkenly grabbed her waist and told her she had nice tits. Tech companies encourage it too... because they want us all to have our entire social lives wrapped up in the company. Oh - you don't want drinks with coworkers after-hours? Maybe you're not a cultural fit? F--- you, I do the job you pay me for, let me keep work and social life completely separate.
- dang 9y ago
  Please don't post rage rants to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
rdtsc 9y ago
I heard of a similar story with Linus Torvalds in that he is worried he would be accused of such things so he avoids mentoring or being alone with women at conferences or gatherings. Is that true or just an unfounded rumor? (Not that I am implying the person in the article is not guilty or it was an unfair accusation, just commenting on what Pence is doing).
- SamReidHughes 9y ago
  That was something posted by ESR that he was told by somebody else and doesn't contain references to Linus's state of mind.
watwut 9y ago
"Is it really common to go swimming at a conference with others attendees of a different sex?" That is pretty common in pretty much any kind of society where water is present. Swimming is normal social accepted activity and swimming pools ceased to be gender segregated years ago. "Crazy parties with booze et al at a conference like NIPS?" Crazy parties are not common, but booze at conferences is common pretty much everywhere except in Arab countries. "Why even have these non-professional outlets, distracting from the professionalism of the conferences themselves?" Conferences were always largely networking and socialization - even years ago. Even when they were male only. And they will always be that way - you all could have just exchange papers otherwise.
jules 9y ago
The old rules about sexual conduct were very clear: making a sexual advance is wrong unless you are married to that person. After the sexual revolution the rules have become very murky. Take the Hollywood scandals. Why exactly is it wrong to offer to exchange sex for career help, according to the new standard? Most people find it intuitively wrong, certainly, but that is mob rule. There need to be new objective rules for the 21st century that are as unambiguous as the old rules.
- mafribe 9y ago
  new objective rules for the 21st century Which one have you got in mind? The Taliban and ISIS have rules; many radical feminists think that all PiV is rape. Are all rules equally good?
  - jules 9y ago
    Clearly not.
mafribe 9y ago
Why even have these non-professional outlets Because conference attendees are human. Not only are they human, many of them young. And humans like to have fun, which include boozing, dancing, socialising, and -- for many -- hooking up (a surprising number or researchers end up marrying other researchers, in my department probably about 1/2). Presenting a paper is great pressure, and once that done ... time to celebrate. Conferences are a great opportunity to see old friends. In 20 years of being an academic, I've never once been to a conference that didn't have social events of some sort. Official events are often followed up by private socialising. Indeed, making friends is in some sense the most important function of conferences. Who wants to work with somebody they don't like?

rawnlq 9y ago

I am really worried about this unintended consequence of self-segregation. This is us going backwards. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/upshot/as-sexual-harassment-scandals-spook-men-it-can-backfire-for-women.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/upshot/as-sexual-harassme... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opposite-sex-at-work-gender-study.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opp...

discoursism 9y ago

A lot of conferences occur at hotels, and most hotels do not have gender segregated pools. So if you fancy a dip and you're at a conference, you're likely going to be swimming with colleagues and counterparts of all genders.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

freedomben 9y ago

I thought Pence was being a bit ridiculous as well, but now seeing what is happening I'm beginning to think there's great wisdom in it.

danso 9y ago
And then we wonder why women feel there's a glass ceiling blocking them from advancing
- watwut 9y ago
  Because when dude touches women without her consent, it is reasonable to exclude women from networking occasion. /logic
- Noos 9y ago
  There is a glass ceiling because due to the potential of sexual relationships and misconduct, workplace relations between men and women must be formal. The type of informality men use with other men in the workplace isn't particularly possible between men and women. And that informal mentorship or aspect to work tends to be what drives a lot of advancement. It's an argument that informal aspects to career success need to be minimized in general. It has other aspects beyond that...all the bullshit of placating or being a puppy dog for your founder or boss in the name of networking, or success too often being who can put a good word in for you rather than a good record sucks.
frabbit 9y ago
Let's turn it into some folk wisdom: "It's a rule: if you're a rapey kinda fool, stay out of the pool."

Eridrus 9y ago

I don't think it's common, but if you host NIPS in a city with a beach (hey long beach), you may at some point want to go for a swim, and it seems pretty easy to go for a swim without getting handsy. Parties with free booze seem common to most industries with money sloshing about, there was definitely free booze for everyone who wanted some every night, including at the conference venue. I don't think the Pence rule is necessary or helpful, I would say avoiding sexual relationships in work situations is probably a good idea in industries with highly skewed gender ratios, but many people complain that just doing that is too high a burden.

hydrox24 9y ago
> "I don't think the Pence rule is necessary or helpful" It isn't necessary for most people in most industries, but it is a rule that some men may need more than others. That is a matter of personal judgement. It is also a rule for a man who wields significant power, which requires stronger boundaries to be put in place. Pence is wise to take extreme steps, but most people aren't the US Vice-President, and don't need to go to the same extremes.

pkd 9y ago

Or maybe he's not onto something and it's totally possible to not be an asshole and try to take advantage of the situation when left alone with a person of the other sex? I don't see how Pence's comment makes any good sense. If you do what he says, you either: - Don't trust yourself (or don't care) to demonstrate appropriate behavior - Don't trust women to respect you if you respect them back.

freedomben 9y ago
I tend to believe that women are people, and that not all people will respect you if you respect them back. Also you have presented a classic example of the fallacy of false dilemma. There are other options, such as: - Worry about false accusations, particularly when you are a person of high power where political stakes are high (and politics bring out the worst in people) - Are big into risk reduction/minimization. It is undeniable that it is less risky from an allegation standpoint to follow the "Pence rule" That said, I think the "Pence rule" isn't all good because it has room for unfairness. For example, much business is conducted over meals while traveling. Meals and other outings can be great ways to get to know your boss, subordinates, and other coworkers. If one goes out to dinner with only male coworkers, that is unfair to women in the workplace, particularly when that person is the boss. For that reason I think if one follows "the Pence rule" they need to have the same standard with people from all genders, so never go to dinner one-on-one with another man if they wouldn't do so with a woman. I'm really whipping a dead horse here, sorry.
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  While I agree with your assertion, with regarding equality that one should not go to meal with anyone else following the Pence rule, however there is something I think you're not taking in consideration. Right now, socially-wise, women have the upper hand on making claims of sexual harassment. The same power does not go to men. This imbalance makes the "Pence Rule" make more sense.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
deleted 9y ago

halfjoking 9y ago

Yep - a pool party with professional women at a conference is just asking for trouble. If you don't invite them you're being "exclusionary." If you do invite them, then 7 years later when you're about to be appointed to the board of directors she writes a blog post about how you drunkenly grabbed her waist and told her she had nice tits. Tech companies encourage it too... because they want us all to have our entire social lives wrapped up in the company. Oh - you don't want drinks with coworkers after-hours? Maybe you're not a cultural fit? F--- you, I do the job you pay me for, let me keep work and social life completely separate.

dang 9y ago
Please don't post rage rants to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

rdtsc 9y ago

I heard of a similar story with Linus Torvalds in that he is worried he would be accused of such things so he avoids mentoring or being alone with women at conferences or gatherings. Is that true or just an unfounded rumor? (Not that I am implying the person in the article is not guilty or it was an unfair accusation, just commenting on what Pence is doing).

SamReidHughes 9y ago
That was something posted by ESR that he was told by somebody else and doesn't contain references to Linus's state of mind.

watwut 9y ago

"Is it really common to go swimming at a conference with others attendees of a different sex?" That is pretty common in pretty much any kind of society where water is present. Swimming is normal social accepted activity and swimming pools ceased to be gender segregated years ago. "Crazy parties with booze et al at a conference like NIPS?" Crazy parties are not common, but booze at conferences is common pretty much everywhere except in Arab countries. "Why even have these non-professional outlets, distracting from the professionalism of the conferences themselves?" Conferences were always largely networking and socialization - even years ago. Even when they were male only. And they will always be that way - you all could have just exchange papers otherwise.

jules 9y ago

The old rules about sexual conduct were very clear: making a sexual advance is wrong unless you are married to that person. After the sexual revolution the rules have become very murky. Take the Hollywood scandals. Why exactly is it wrong to offer to exchange sex for career help, according to the new standard? Most people find it intuitively wrong, certainly, but that is mob rule. There need to be new objective rules for the 21st century that are as unambiguous as the old rules.

mafribe 9y ago
new objective rules for the 21st century Which one have you got in mind? The Taliban and ISIS have rules; many radical feminists think that all PiV is rape. Are all rules equally good?
- jules 9y ago
  Clearly not.

mafribe 9y ago

Why even have these non-professional outlets Because conference attendees are human. Not only are they human, many of them young. And humans like to have fun, which include boozing, dancing, socialising, and -- for many -- hooking up (a surprising number or researchers end up marrying other researchers, in my department probably about 1/2). Presenting a paper is great pressure, and once that done ... time to celebrate. Conferences are a great opportunity to see old friends. In 20 years of being an academic, I've never once been to a conference that didn't have social events of some sort. Official events are often followed up by private socialising. Indeed, making friends is in some sense the most important function of conferences. Who wants to work with somebody they don't like?