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> they can memorize cognitive biases, mental models, meta-models/heuristics, empathy/communication techniques, and the a basic explanation of the psychology/neu

> they can memorize cognitive biases, mental models, meta-models/heuristics, empathy/communication techniques, and the a basic explanation of the psychology/neuroscience that backs them up. This will allow children to effectively deal with their own flaws, and those of others. This reads like a parody. Memorizing a list of definitions isn’t going to accomplish much of anything, any more than memorizing a list of equipment names will turn someone into a doctor or engineer. These are tricky concepts/tools, and wielding them properly takes serious expertise. Students need (years of copious) experience reading, making, and analyzing increasingly subtle and sophisticated arguments with significant amounts of feedback from other students and expert teachers/mentors to come to a journeyman-level understanding of logic and rhetoric. Critical introspection is even harder; adults have trouble with it after decades of liberal arts education, professional school, work, personal relationships, meditation, therapy, ....

ewjordan 9y ago
Adults have trouble with all this stuff because mostly they don't learn it at all, even with a liberal arts education or any of the other things you mention. The entire rationalism movement is essentially founded based on the fact that ostensibly educated people don't realize how badly their brains work by default. The greatest superpower we have as humans is that we have the ability to introspect, and second guess our immediate responses in light of what we've learned. That allows us to jump to conclusions much quicker on shoddy evidence, because we can course correct later as we gather more, and it's super effective as a learning strategy. Learning how to better correct our initial hypotheses helps us perform even better, but it requires us to actually study the things that humans tend to get wrong. Most education, professions, and life experiences do not support that goal, so it's an easy win if you go outside the system to do so.
- jacobolus 9y ago
  Judging from the people I know who identify themselves with the “rationalism movement”, occasionally reading topical blog posts doesn’t inherently teach introspection (or even reasoning) any better than high school, though its adherents are pretty good at rattling off lists of logical fallacies and getting distracted by meta-arguments about which particular one applies in a given situation. [Or by “rationalism movement” are you talking about, say, philosophy / sociology / anthropology / behavioral economics / history Ph.Ds or licensed psychiatrists? That would be something like the years of dedicated training I was talking about, though those fields have different modes of inquiry and different subjects of study, and some are surely better at reasoning / rhetoric / self reflection than others.]
  - ewjordan 9y ago
    You're right, reading occasional blog posts doesn't do anything for anyone, on pretty much any topic. I'd argue that anyone professing to be a rationalist on those grounds is lying to themselves. Also worth pointing out that the rationalist community has a lot of issues and biases that mostly spring from focus problems - like any group, they tend to hyper-analyze a few pet issues that draw their attention and then ignore the rest of the world. Even if they're correctly analyzing those issues, the social problem of biased community focus ends up thwarting the goal of overall rationality. I don't think this is a problem specific to rationalists, rather a general failure of human communication (for any -ism, you'll find that people have tunnel vision and tend to force everything they see and hear through the lens of that -ism), but it is rightly criticized more there because the movement claims to be better at seeking truth than others. I have no idea how to solve that problem, it's really an emergent result of what gets people hot and bothered and draws their attention and analysis, which is an innate human irrationality and extremely hard to think your way around.
notduncansmith 9y ago
I'm not trying to say that if they memorize some definitions they'll have a deep understanding of the human condition. I'm saying that by simply normalizing that level of analysis and understanding of human behavior, we can begin shaking off a lot of unproductive cultural baggage. It helps to know to categorize the ineffective behavior you experience as pathological as opposed to attribution to gender, race, religion, political persuasion, or other culturally-encouraged fallacies. Also, it's not like being better able to understand people is an unattractive concept to kids: most of them naturally attempt to make sense of the world, and helping them internalize the completely natural multi-faceted fallibility of humans (including themselves) will pay off enormously in their future interactions with people.
- jacobolus 9y ago
  Sure, but the way you get there is by focused work for years and years, not memorizing a list of definitions.
  - gt_ 9y ago
    How do you get to the years and years of focused work? Vocabularies are the building blocks and mapping points of our knowledge stores. I think the suggestion is that emphasis on awareness and, at least some symbolic reverence to the concepts in grade school may offer a better path that what is traditional now. Memorizing state capitals won’t make anybody Governer, but skipping that step early on can be a major derailment from path. Memorizing the capitals offers one of many maps to understanding more about what America is, and how it’s government works. Knowing the names encourages curiosity and inspires asking questions that otherwise could not be asked. It sounds entirely reasonable to me that this could be what we need. I agree years and years is what is required, but I notice many people my age (early 30s) still lack basic vocabulary of these topics, so I have a hard time opposing teaching exactly that, but certainly agree many years, and a significant curiosity seems necessary. How do help that along?
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFIYKmos3-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFIYKmos3-s > Memorizing state capitals won’t make anybody Governer, but skipping that step early on can be a major derailment from path. “Major derailment”? You can’t be serious. Nobody at my school ever memorized state capitals, and as far as I can tell they’re all doing about as well as you would expect (a couple decades later) in their various careers, including careers as lawyers, activists, policy analysts, journalists, politicians, scholars of political science, ... Anyone who does the real work (reading hundreds of topical books, keeping up with current events for decades, getting involved in political activism, engaging with peers in years of university seminars about related topics, ...) is going to end up having a reasonable grasp of the names of most states and their capitals, but being able to rattle off a list is mostly useless, except as a stunt. > Knowing the names encourages curiosity and inspires asking questions that otherwise could not be asked. Memorizing lists of random trivia engenders boredom and makes kids think school is bullshit. The questions they ask are things like “why are we doing this pointless busywork?” and “why doesn’t my teacher respect kids’ intelligence?”

ewjordan 9y ago

Adults have trouble with all this stuff because mostly they don't learn it at all, even with a liberal arts education or any of the other things you mention. The entire rationalism movement is essentially founded based on the fact that ostensibly educated people don't realize how badly their brains work by default. The greatest superpower we have as humans is that we have the ability to introspect, and second guess our immediate responses in light of what we've learned. That allows us to jump to conclusions much quicker on shoddy evidence, because we can course correct later as we gather more, and it's super effective as a learning strategy. Learning how to better correct our initial hypotheses helps us perform even better, but it requires us to actually study the things that humans tend to get wrong. Most education, professions, and life experiences do not support that goal, so it's an easy win if you go outside the system to do so.

jacobolus 9y ago
Judging from the people I know who identify themselves with the “rationalism movement”, occasionally reading topical blog posts doesn’t inherently teach introspection (or even reasoning) any better than high school, though its adherents are pretty good at rattling off lists of logical fallacies and getting distracted by meta-arguments about which particular one applies in a given situation. [Or by “rationalism movement” are you talking about, say, philosophy / sociology / anthropology / behavioral economics / history Ph.Ds or licensed psychiatrists? That would be something like the years of dedicated training I was talking about, though those fields have different modes of inquiry and different subjects of study, and some are surely better at reasoning / rhetoric / self reflection than others.]
- ewjordan 9y ago
  You're right, reading occasional blog posts doesn't do anything for anyone, on pretty much any topic. I'd argue that anyone professing to be a rationalist on those grounds is lying to themselves. Also worth pointing out that the rationalist community has a lot of issues and biases that mostly spring from focus problems - like any group, they tend to hyper-analyze a few pet issues that draw their attention and then ignore the rest of the world. Even if they're correctly analyzing those issues, the social problem of biased community focus ends up thwarting the goal of overall rationality. I don't think this is a problem specific to rationalists, rather a general failure of human communication (for any -ism, you'll find that people have tunnel vision and tend to force everything they see and hear through the lens of that -ism), but it is rightly criticized more there because the movement claims to be better at seeking truth than others. I have no idea how to solve that problem, it's really an emergent result of what gets people hot and bothered and draws their attention and analysis, which is an innate human irrationality and extremely hard to think your way around.

notduncansmith 9y ago

I'm not trying to say that if they memorize some definitions they'll have a deep understanding of the human condition. I'm saying that by simply normalizing that level of analysis and understanding of human behavior, we can begin shaking off a lot of unproductive cultural baggage. It helps to know to categorize the ineffective behavior you experience as pathological as opposed to attribution to gender, race, religion, political persuasion, or other culturally-encouraged fallacies. Also, it's not like being better able to understand people is an unattractive concept to kids: most of them naturally attempt to make sense of the world, and helping them internalize the completely natural multi-faceted fallibility of humans (including themselves) will pay off enormously in their future interactions with people.

jacobolus 9y ago
Sure, but the way you get there is by focused work for years and years, not memorizing a list of definitions.
- gt_ 9y ago
  How do you get to the years and years of focused work? Vocabularies are the building blocks and mapping points of our knowledge stores. I think the suggestion is that emphasis on awareness and, at least some symbolic reverence to the concepts in grade school may offer a better path that what is traditional now. Memorizing state capitals won’t make anybody Governer, but skipping that step early on can be a major derailment from path. Memorizing the capitals offers one of many maps to understanding more about what America is, and how it’s government works. Knowing the names encourages curiosity and inspires asking questions that otherwise could not be asked. It sounds entirely reasonable to me that this could be what we need. I agree years and years is what is required, but I notice many people my age (early 30s) still lack basic vocabulary of these topics, so I have a hard time opposing teaching exactly that, but certainly agree many years, and a significant curiosity seems necessary. How do help that along?
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFIYKmos3-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFIYKmos3-s > Memorizing state capitals won’t make anybody Governer, but skipping that step early on can be a major derailment from path. “Major derailment”? You can’t be serious. Nobody at my school ever memorized state capitals, and as far as I can tell they’re all doing about as well as you would expect (a couple decades later) in their various careers, including careers as lawyers, activists, policy analysts, journalists, politicians, scholars of political science, ... Anyone who does the real work (reading hundreds of topical books, keeping up with current events for decades, getting involved in political activism, engaging with peers in years of university seminars about related topics, ...) is going to end up having a reasonable grasp of the names of most states and their capitals, but being able to rattle off a list is mostly useless, except as a stunt. > Knowing the names encourages curiosity and inspires asking questions that otherwise could not be asked. Memorizing lists of random trivia engenders boredom and makes kids think school is bullshit. The questions they ask are things like “why are we doing this pointless busywork?” and “why doesn’t my teacher respect kids’ intelligence?”