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The bitcoin open source development team doesn't control the node i run. If you want centralized chinese government controlled crypto, there's bcash. If you

The bitcoin open source development team doesn't control the node i run. If you want centralized chinese government controlled crypto, there's bcash. If you were actually interested in just cheap fees, you'd use litecoin. It has been around for years. It even has segwit, unlike bcash.

ericb 9y ago
Litecoin has the same small-block commitment. > If you want centralized chinese government controlled crypto, there's bcash. That's the pot calling the kettle black. Bitcoin core is China-coin. The economics of mining mean that there will always be centralization. Mining will centralize where there is free or cheap electricity (ahem, China). Mining will centralize on the hardware of the single manufacturer with the most cost-effective asics (ahem, China). It inevitably centralizes as other miners will fall behind revenue-wise, and not be able to invest enough to provide meaningful hashpower over time. The small-blocks-prevent-centralization line of thinking is just closing the barn door after the horse is out.
- Frogolocalypse 9y ago
  Nodes define and police consensus in bitcoin, not miners.
  - ericb 9y ago
    The proof of work determines consensus.
    - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
      The nodes validate that the work has been undertaken. Therefore, it is the nodes that police and enforce consensus in bitcoin.
      - ericb 9y ago
        Since the work was undertaken in China, can you flesh out how the fact that nodes verify consensus resolves the China-coin problem? A 51% attack dictated by the chinese government would verify just fine.
        Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        You fundamentally do not understand how bitcoin works. So let's talk about nodes and consensus as defined in the whitepaper and implemented in nodes. Let's start with the bitcoin white paper (https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf) : > Satoshi from the Bitcoin white-paper chapter 12 'Conclusion' : The network is robust in its unstructured simplicity. _Nodes_ work all at once with little coordination. They do not need to be identified, since messages are not routed to any particular place and only need to be delivered on a best effort basis. _Nodes_ can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the proof-of-work chain as proof of what happened while they were gone. They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this _consensus mechanism_. First, you have to understand what 'consensus' actually means : > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_%28computer_science%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_%28computer_science%... > A fundamental problem in distributed computing and multi-agent systems is to achieve overall system reliability in the presence of a number of faulty processes. This often requires processes to agree on some data value that is needed during computation. Examples of applications of consensus include whether to commit a transaction to a database (or, for example, committing blocks to a blockchain), agreeing on the identity of a leader, state machine replication, and atomic broadcasts. The real world applications include clock synchronization, PageRank, opinion formation, smart power grids, state estimation, control of UAVs, load balancing and others. What does this mean if you are but an intrepid traveler amongst the erstwhile numpty-folk? Nodes are agents in a multi-agent system with an agreed set of consensus rules (https://www.cryptocompare.com/coins/guides/how-does-a-bitcoin-node-verify-a-transaction/ https://www.cryptocompare.com/coins/guides/how-does-a-bitcoi...), which they and they alone enforce, that ensure that the system functions. Transactions are propagated through the multi-agent network based upon the agreed consensus rules by nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system. Miners retrieve valid transactions from any of these nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system. They then order the transactions, and perform a hashing function on them until the hashing function returns a value that is suitable to the nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system. They then pass the new block that they've created to the nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system. The nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system, then validate the block to ensure that each of the transactions within the block agree with the consensus rules. Then the node, which is an agent in a multi-agent system, extends the block-chain by attaching the new block to it. They then pass the new block, if it is valid, to other nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system. Then each of these other nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system, each do the same validation on every block. Nodes accept incoming transactions and validate them. Miners don't. Nodes replicate transactions to other nodes. Miners don't. Miners take transactions from nodes, and order them in a block, and perform a hashing function on them (the only thing they do). Miners pass the new block to the node. The node validates the transactions in the block. Miners don't. The node validates the block. Miners don't. The node extends the blockchain. Miners don't. The node replicates the block to other nodes. Miners don't. It is the validation of the nodes, and their CPU's, that define and police consensus in bitcoin. There is only one function that miners do. They take transactions, put them in a block, and hash them. As soon as a miner produces a block that nodes don't want, it is rejected. Miners work. Nodes validate. So nodes are the proof in proof-of-work. Nodes accept the transactions, validate the transactions (using their CPU), replicate the transactions, maintain the mempools, validate the blocks (using their CPU), extend the blockchain (using their CPU), replicate the blocks, serve the blockchain, and store the blockchain. Nodes even define the PoW algorithm that miners have to employ. If you can't convince these node owners that are using their node on a day-to-day basis, to uninstall their node software and install your new node client, especially when that node client decreases their node security and decreases the network security, any change you have is going to go exactly nowhere. So nodes maintain the protocol, not miners. It is thus. It has always been thus. If you can't convince all of those node owners running their node clients to uninstall one client and re-install another, any change you have to consensus is DOA. See for yourself. Download it. (https://bitcoin.org/en/download https://bitcoin.org/en/download) It's currently at 0.15.1 https://bitcoin.org/en/full-node https://bitcoin.org/en/full-node > A full node is a program that fully validates transactions and blocks. Almost all full nodes also help the network by accepting transactions and blocks from other full nodes, validating those transactions and blocks, and then relaying them to further full nodes.

ericb 9y ago

Litecoin has the same small-block commitment. > If you want centralized chinese government controlled crypto, there's bcash. That's the pot calling the kettle black. Bitcoin core is China-coin. The economics of mining mean that there will always be centralization. Mining will centralize where there is free or cheap electricity (ahem, China). Mining will centralize on the hardware of the single manufacturer with the most cost-effective asics (ahem, China). It inevitably centralizes as other miners will fall behind revenue-wise, and not be able to invest enough to provide meaningful hashpower over time. The small-blocks-prevent-centralization line of thinking is just closing the barn door after the horse is out.

Frogolocalypse 9y ago
Nodes define and police consensus in bitcoin, not miners.
- ericb 9y ago
  The proof of work determines consensus.
  - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
    The nodes validate that the work has been undertaken. Therefore, it is the nodes that police and enforce consensus in bitcoin.
    - ericb 9y ago
      Since the work was undertaken in China, can you flesh out how the fact that nodes verify consensus resolves the China-coin problem? A 51% attack dictated by the chinese government would verify just fine.
      - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        You fundamentally do not understand how bitcoin works. So let's talk about nodes and consensus as defined in the whitepaper and implemented in nodes. Let's start with the bitcoin white paper (https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf) : > Satoshi from the Bitcoin white-paper chapter 12 'Conclusion' : The network is robust in its unstructured simplicity. _Nodes_ work all at once with little coordination. They do not need to be identified, since messages are not routed to any particular place and only need to be delivered on a best effort basis. _Nodes_ can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the proof-of-work chain as proof of what happened while they were gone. They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this _consensus mechanism_. First, you have to understand what 'consensus' actually means : > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_%28computer_science%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_%28computer_science%... > A fundamental problem in distributed computing and multi-agent systems is to achieve overall system reliability in the presence of a number of faulty processes. This often requires processes to agree on some data value that is needed during computation. Examples of applications of consensus include whether to commit a transaction to a database (or, for example, committing blocks to a blockchain), agreeing on the identity of a leader, state machine replication, and atomic broadcasts. The real world applications include clock synchronization, PageRank, opinion formation, smart power grids, state estimation, control of UAVs, load balancing and others. What does this mean if you are but an intrepid traveler amongst the erstwhile numpty-folk? Nodes are agents in a multi-agent system with an agreed set of consensus rules (https://www.cryptocompare.com/coins/guides/how-does-a-bitcoin-node-verify-a-transaction/ https://www.cryptocompare.com/coins/guides/how-does-a-bitcoi...), which they and they alone enforce, that ensure that the system functions. Transactions are propagated through the multi-agent network based upon the agreed consensus rules by nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system. Miners retrieve valid transactions from any of these nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system. They then order the transactions, and perform a hashing function on them until the hashing function returns a value that is suitable to the nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system. They then pass the new block that they've created to the nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system. The nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system, then validate the block to ensure that each of the transactions within the block agree with the consensus rules. Then the node, which is an agent in a multi-agent system, extends the block-chain by attaching the new block to it. They then pass the new block, if it is valid, to other nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system. Then each of these other nodes, which are agents in a multi-agent system, each do the same validation on every block. Nodes accept incoming transactions and validate them. Miners don't. Nodes replicate transactions to other nodes. Miners don't. Miners take transactions from nodes, and order them in a block, and perform a hashing function on them (the only thing they do). Miners pass the new block to the node. The node validates the transactions in the block. Miners don't. The node validates the block. Miners don't. The node extends the blockchain. Miners don't. The node replicates the block to other nodes. Miners don't. It is the validation of the nodes, and their CPU's, that define and police consensus in bitcoin. There is only one function that miners do. They take transactions, put them in a block, and hash them. As soon as a miner produces a block that nodes don't want, it is rejected. Miners work. Nodes validate. So nodes are the proof in proof-of-work. Nodes accept the transactions, validate the transactions (using their CPU), replicate the transactions, maintain the mempools, validate the blocks (using their CPU), extend the blockchain (using their CPU), replicate the blocks, serve the blockchain, and store the blockchain. Nodes even define the PoW algorithm that miners have to employ. If you can't convince these node owners that are using their node on a day-to-day basis, to uninstall their node software and install your new node client, especially when that node client decreases their node security and decreases the network security, any change you have is going to go exactly nowhere. So nodes maintain the protocol, not miners. It is thus. It has always been thus. If you can't convince all of those node owners running their node clients to uninstall one client and re-install another, any change you have to consensus is DOA. See for yourself. Download it. (https://bitcoin.org/en/download https://bitcoin.org/en/download) It's currently at 0.15.1 https://bitcoin.org/en/full-node https://bitcoin.org/en/full-node > A full node is a program that fully validates transactions and blocks. Almost all full nodes also help the network by accepting transactions and blocks from other full nodes, validating those transactions and blocks, and then relaying them to further full nodes.