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You've done a bait and switch on me. I'm talking about personality types. Maybe you can argue that women are less likely to be e.g. introverts, because of cultu

You've done a bait and switch on me. I'm talking about personality types. Maybe you can argue that women are less likely to be e.g. introverts, because of culture. But that has nothing to do with the tech industry and they can't change that. And that was basically Damore's argument. You have personality types like INTP being vastly overrepresented among programmers, yet 4 times less common among women. You have the same percentage of young girls interested in computer science at a young age as work in the tech industry. You have studies trying to raise kids as neutrally as possible and still finding boys prefer trucks and girls prefer dolls. It's definitely not culture.

dguaraglia 9y ago
> You've done a bait and switch on me. No I haven't. > ... that has nothing to do with the tech industry and they can't change that... So what you are saying is that: a) We don't know if this is a cultural issue or not b) So the tech industry shouldn't do anything about it Huh? > You have studies trying to raise kids as neutrally as possible and still finding boys prefer trucks and girls prefer dolls. It's definitely not culture. There's definite proof to the contrary: certain cultures (like Soviet Russia, for example) had a much bigger female representation in STEM fields than others [1]. Heck, even Mexico today has a higher representation of females in CS degrees than the US [2] How do you explain that if "it's definitely not culture"??? [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/soviet-russia-had-a-better-record-of-training-women-in-stem-than-america-does-today-180948141/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/soviet-russia-had-... [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/there-are-only-3-countries-where-girls-feel-more-comfortable-with-math-than-boys/284272/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/th...
- Houshalter 9y ago
  I'm saying the disparity is due to personality difference. Which, even if cultural, can't be changed by the tech industry. I find it very implausible that the differences are cultural at any level. And many possible cultural explanations have been ruled out. Poor and communist countries have less gender disparities because people have less choice over their careers. E.g. poor parents shove their kids into STEM because it's see it as a way out of poverty. In rich countries people have the freedom to pursue their actual interests. And so statistical differences in interests start to matter.
  - dguaraglia 9y ago
    > And many possible cultural explanations have been ruled out. You say this, but quote absolutely no science to back it up. Maybe this is just an intuitive perception that you have, rather than a fact? I actually quoted two articles that prove the contrary, and you have no retort for them, but rather just glance over them as if they didn't exist. > Poor and communist countries have less gender disparities because people have less choice over their careers. E.g. poor parents shove their kids into STEM because it's see it as a way out of poverty. In rich countries people have the freedom to pursue their actual interests. So you are going against your previous statement and saying here that culture plays a major role? Unless you use the word 'culture' in a very narrow definition that only includes things such as food, drinks and folk dances. Communist countries, especially Russia, made a big deal about erasing gender inequality (they saw gender roles as another form of oppression.) That's the main reason why Russia had such a high participation of women in STEM, it wasn't because "parents would force them because they were poor." I'm all for having a conversation about this, but are you willing to take new evidence and process it, rather than keep pushing your intuitive notion?
    - Houshalter 9y ago
      >You say this, but quote absolutely no science to back it up. Yes I do, and I've been over some of it with you in this thread. >I actually quoted two articles that prove the contrary, and you have no retort for them, but rather just glance over them as if they didn't exist. What, the poor countries have different gender ratios claim? I addressed that. >So you are going against your previous statement and saying here that culture plays a major role? In poor countries, yes. How is Russia doing today after a ton of economic growth? I had trouble finding statistics, the only stat I could find is this: >In 2016 Russia had the highest percentage of patents filed by women, at about 16%. Which is about the ratio of women in STEM in the West.
      - dguaraglia 9y ago
        > Yes I do, and I've been over some of it with you in this thread. I looked for all your comments with your name in my history. Not a single one of them links to anything. > What, the poor countries have different gender ratios claim? I addressed that. You haven't addressed it, though. You claim it's based on economic growth, yet cite no evidence. In fact, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary: the UK has a bigger (and more advanced) economy than India, and a bigger participation of women in STEM. The same goes for Norway vs. US. In fact, Latin America has a much higher participation when compared with, say, Asia for comparable economic growth. Even if we take the US in isolation, your claim doesn't hold up: we have grown at a relatively steady pace for the past few decades and more women participate on STEM fields today that they did in the 80s and 90s. If "economic growth" was the one driving factor, you'd see the exact opposite. Again, are you sure you are putting enough effort into validating your statements? Here are two sets of statistics you might want to consider [1][2] > How is Russia doing today after a ton of economic growth? Russia has gone through a huge amount of "Westernization" since the Berlin Wall came down, so trying to make the case that economic growth or cultural shift are 100% to account for the changes is a fool's errand. > In 2016 Russia had the highest percentage of patents filed by women, at about 16% What makes you think that patent filings of all things represents industry participation? You have to be careful, you could easily conclude there are no males younger than 24 in a given industry if you used patents filed as your only data source. I think the links I posted above, in particular [2] are a better reference. [1] https://www.weforum.org/reports/the-inclusive-growth-and-development-report-2017 https://www.weforum.org/reports/the-inclusive-growth-and-dev... [2] http://uis.unesco.org/sites/default/files/documents/fs43-women-in-science-2017-en.pdf http://uis.unesco.org/sites/default/files/documents/fs43-wom...

dguaraglia 9y ago

> You've done a bait and switch on me. No I haven't. > ... that has nothing to do with the tech industry and they can't change that... So what you are saying is that: a) We don't know if this is a cultural issue or not b) So the tech industry shouldn't do anything about it Huh? > You have studies trying to raise kids as neutrally as possible and still finding boys prefer trucks and girls prefer dolls. It's definitely not culture. There's definite proof to the contrary: certain cultures (like Soviet Russia, for example) had a much bigger female representation in STEM fields than others [1]. Heck, even Mexico today has a higher representation of females in CS degrees than the US [2] How do you explain that if "it's definitely not culture"??? [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/soviet-russia-had-a-better-record-of-training-women-in-stem-than-america-does-today-180948141/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/soviet-russia-had-... [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/there-are-only-3-countries-where-girls-feel-more-comfortable-with-math-than-boys/284272/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/th...

Houshalter 9y ago
I'm saying the disparity is due to personality difference. Which, even if cultural, can't be changed by the tech industry. I find it very implausible that the differences are cultural at any level. And many possible cultural explanations have been ruled out. Poor and communist countries have less gender disparities because people have less choice over their careers. E.g. poor parents shove their kids into STEM because it's see it as a way out of poverty. In rich countries people have the freedom to pursue their actual interests. And so statistical differences in interests start to matter.
- dguaraglia 9y ago
  > And many possible cultural explanations have been ruled out. You say this, but quote absolutely no science to back it up. Maybe this is just an intuitive perception that you have, rather than a fact? I actually quoted two articles that prove the contrary, and you have no retort for them, but rather just glance over them as if they didn't exist. > Poor and communist countries have less gender disparities because people have less choice over their careers. E.g. poor parents shove their kids into STEM because it's see it as a way out of poverty. In rich countries people have the freedom to pursue their actual interests. So you are going against your previous statement and saying here that culture plays a major role? Unless you use the word 'culture' in a very narrow definition that only includes things such as food, drinks and folk dances. Communist countries, especially Russia, made a big deal about erasing gender inequality (they saw gender roles as another form of oppression.) That's the main reason why Russia had such a high participation of women in STEM, it wasn't because "parents would force them because they were poor." I'm all for having a conversation about this, but are you willing to take new evidence and process it, rather than keep pushing your intuitive notion?
  - Houshalter 9y ago
    >You say this, but quote absolutely no science to back it up. Yes I do, and I've been over some of it with you in this thread. >I actually quoted two articles that prove the contrary, and you have no retort for them, but rather just glance over them as if they didn't exist. What, the poor countries have different gender ratios claim? I addressed that. >So you are going against your previous statement and saying here that culture plays a major role? In poor countries, yes. How is Russia doing today after a ton of economic growth? I had trouble finding statistics, the only stat I could find is this: >In 2016 Russia had the highest percentage of patents filed by women, at about 16%. Which is about the ratio of women in STEM in the West.
    - dguaraglia 9y ago
      > Yes I do, and I've been over some of it with you in this thread. I looked for all your comments with your name in my history. Not a single one of them links to anything. > What, the poor countries have different gender ratios claim? I addressed that. You haven't addressed it, though. You claim it's based on economic growth, yet cite no evidence. In fact, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary: the UK has a bigger (and more advanced) economy than India, and a bigger participation of women in STEM. The same goes for Norway vs. US. In fact, Latin America has a much higher participation when compared with, say, Asia for comparable economic growth. Even if we take the US in isolation, your claim doesn't hold up: we have grown at a relatively steady pace for the past few decades and more women participate on STEM fields today that they did in the 80s and 90s. If "economic growth" was the one driving factor, you'd see the exact opposite. Again, are you sure you are putting enough effort into validating your statements? Here are two sets of statistics you might want to consider [1][2] > How is Russia doing today after a ton of economic growth? Russia has gone through a huge amount of "Westernization" since the Berlin Wall came down, so trying to make the case that economic growth or cultural shift are 100% to account for the changes is a fool's errand. > In 2016 Russia had the highest percentage of patents filed by women, at about 16% What makes you think that patent filings of all things represents industry participation? You have to be careful, you could easily conclude there are no males younger than 24 in a given industry if you used patents filed as your only data source. I think the links I posted above, in particular [2] are a better reference. [1] https://www.weforum.org/reports/the-inclusive-growth-and-development-report-2017 https://www.weforum.org/reports/the-inclusive-growth-and-dev... [2] http://uis.unesco.org/sites/default/files/documents/fs43-women-in-science-2017-en.pdf http://uis.unesco.org/sites/default/files/documents/fs43-wom...