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Speaking as someone who has run a lot of marathons and half marathons, it would be more honest to describe this project as attempting to have a human run 26.2 m

Speaking as someone who has run a lot of marathons and half marathons, it would be more honest to describe this project as attempting to have a human run 26.2 miles in under 2 hours in perfect, laboratory like conditions. It's a little insulting to marathon runners to claim this is a 'marathon' IMO. Long but fascinating article though...

pboutros 9y ago
It's totally a marathon! Sure, the conditions are lab perfect -- but these are also some of the best runners in the world.
- chrisfosterelli 9y ago
  I don't want to take away from their substantial achievement but I think it's an important distinction between "lab perfect" and "techniques that would not be allowed in any official marathon race in the world".
  - alasdair_ 9y ago
    >"techniques that would not be allowed in any official marathon race in the world" (genuine question) is there only one official body in the world that determines what a "marathon" is? My understanding is that the Boston Marathon (which certainly seems to be a marathon) isn't considered a "real" marathon because of various reasons (weather, elevation, non-loop nature of the course etc.)
    - bronson 9y ago
      The IAAF. Boston is an excellent marathon but ineligible for world records.
- zjaffee 9y ago
  The original definition of a marathon involves running from Athens to Marathon in Greece, and when your average person thinks of a marathon, they think of the street races that happen all around the world. Marathon running isn't necessarily a track and field sport in the way the 100 meter sprint is.
  - stonewhite 9y ago
    It is the other way around; running back from Marathon to Athens. The story takes place after Athenian Hoplites pushes back a Persian army into their ships at the Marathon shores, after which this ship sails to Athens to wreak havoc. Hoplites make the run from Marathon to Athens just in time to defend against Persians and successfully discourage them against further attacks. After the Battle of Marathon, hoplites who were in the war referred it to as "the run", "we ran", or had "he ran" carved in their tombstones etc. So Marathon became synonymous with running.
    - hjjiehebebe 9y ago
      TIL the Hoplites didn't run an official marathon
    - smogcutter 9y ago
      This is not correct. "We ran" refers to the hoplite charge during the battle itself, which was notable for being a long run at full tilt (although Herodotus likely exaggerates): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D112%3Asection%3D3 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... Here's the mention of "we ran" in Hansen: https://books.google.com/books?id=lAWEPUkz5sIC&pg=PT164&lpg=PT164&dq=hoplites+%22we+ran%22+battle+of+marathon&source=bl&ots=MgSSb5r0UN&sig=0KYJUR5acjzDmHWxl6tPe-mPcg4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyxc2t7YzYAhVmJsAKHTL4B2AQ6AEIWDAN#v=onepage&q=we%20ran&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=lAWEPUkz5sIC&pg=PT164&lpg=... The story of Pheidippides running from Marathon to Athens (and dying on arrival) is certainly apocryphal, but it's nevertheless the origin of the modern marathon.
      - stonewhite 9y ago
        Thanks for the correction and the links.
        smogcutter 9y ago
        If you're interested in the period, check out the podcast Dan Carlin's Hardcore History. He's got a three part series on the Persians that's totally engrossing. For one thing, it's where I heard the "we ran" story about Marathon veterans. Carlin is a fantastic storyteller, and his stuff is very well researched.
appleiigs 9y ago
I don't know why runners are so snobby when it comes things like this. What if it was an official marathon where they run with very strong winds at their back. Would you consider that achievement worse than perfect lab like conditions? It's a certain distance, by foot. That's it. I also see snobbishness and even anger toward run-walkers. Even if they do the same distance in the same conditions.
- teamhappy 9y ago
  > What if it was an official marathon where they run with very strong winds at their back. The courses need to follow certain rules to mitigate the effect of tailwinds, slopes and things like that. That's why Boston isn't eligible for world records. Here's the rule: "The start and finish points of a course, measured along a theoretical straight line between them, shall not be further apart than 50% of the race distance." (http://www.aims-worldrunning.org/world-records.html http://www.aims-worldrunning.org/world-records.html)
  - appleiigs 9y ago
    Ok cool. Thanks for the information. But just to address the original comments: "It's a little insulting to marathon runners to claim this is a 'marathon' IMO.".... We do consider the Boston Marathon to be a marathon, right?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - gamblor956 9y ago
      They're different types of marathon. Boston is a real marathon, run on a hilly course in whatever the weather is on the day of the race. This has meant rainstorms, 80+ degree weather, and everything in between. Nike's WR attempt is an experimental marathon, run on a track shielded from the wind, on a date and time chosen based on the temperature, cloud cover, and wind forecasts to be ideal for human long-distance performance running.
- 9y ago
sliverstorm 9y ago
Isn't this how the march of progress goes sometimes? Somebody does an impossible feat (with help & ideal conditions). They show it can be done. Then other people begin to replicate, and the ideal conditions & support start to be eliminated. Rock climbing jumps to mind.
alasdair_ 9y ago
>It's a little insulting to marathon runners to claim this is a 'marathon' IMO. I agree. Anything other than a 26.2 mile race in footwear common in the classical hellenistic period that terminates in the ancient town of Marathon in Greece is a little insulting to REAL marathon runners. /s
- njarboe 9y ago
  Marathon to Athens, I believe is the correct route.
  - azeotropic 9y ago
    But first run from Athens to Sparta and back. If you happen to see Pan, it is permissible to stop and chat with him.
js2 9y ago
I've run over 25 marathons. A half-marathon is a weekly training run. I've got a 3:07 PR. I am not insulted. The limits of human performance are fascinating! > He drove onward, breaking the tape in two hours and 25 seconds. I just ran a marathon two weeks ago in 3:15:24. I'd only wanted to break 3:20 that day so I was more than satisfied. Yet I still found myself going over my race wondering why I couldn't find just one second per mile to go under 3:15. Just one second! The mental aspect of the marathon is my favorite part of running.
- baddox 9y ago
  Out of curiosity, do you track and monitor your progress during your runs? This article makes it sound like doing so is very important, which makes sense.
  - brianwawok 9y ago
    GPS watches! Can't live without them.
    - js2 9y ago
      If it's not on Strava, did the run even happen? :-)
  - js2 9y ago
    I do. I run with a Garmin, mostly to keep myself from running the first hour or so too fast. The rest of the race I check my splits (mile markers) but mostly run by feel. When I ran Chicago last year my Garmin lost the GPS signal so I just went with the pace group runners. Usually only the mid-size to large races have pacers, and you never know how good they are, but at Chicago the pacers may as well be professionals. Regardless, yes, running even effort is critical to the best performance. This can be tricky depending upon terrain, wind, and temperature. Also, personally do best going out a bit slow (the first 5K or so). Being able to pass runners as the race wears on is a huge psychological boost for me.
hsitz 9y ago
>It's a little insulting to marathon runners to claim this is a 'marathon' IMO. Well, the guys participating were three of the best marathoners in the world, probably one (Kipchoge) who is the best ever, so I doubt whether they or anybody involved were concerned about "insulting" marathon runners. Everybody was well aware that the conditions were different and would help create a faster time than possible in a regular marathon race. Baby steps. Once they have achieved sub-2 in "artificial" conditions, the idea of going sub-2 in an actual marathon race will seem easier, and will be the next item to check off.
- FreeCrypto 9y ago
  Exactly this. Kipchoge would probably be insulted that the OP uses the term "run" in describing anything that's slower than 5:15 pace.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    Or perhaps he's not an asshole and considers running to be whatever the runner is happy with.
    - FreeCrypto 9y ago
      I think you're right, he seems like a super nice dude in his interviews :)
bhc3 9y ago
Oliver - as a fellow marathoner, I'll disagree on this. 26.2 is just a long run, with ever degrading legs. Even with the drafting behind the phalanx of runner, one's legs are being put through some rough work. I watched the Kipchoge doing this race. He was a beast, not a lab rat. Note that two other runners, with all the advantages, couldn't come close to what he did. For me, this was confirmation that humans do indeed have room to push the current world record further down.
- olivermarks 9y ago
  @bhc3 hey Hutch - you and I have run together in the past! Surprised this thread has the legs it has - I was merely pointing out the sterile (and arguably Nike marketing oriented) attempt at a sub 2 hour 26.2 mile effort was, despite being a super human effort, not a 'marathon' per se. This has been beaten to death elsewhere online in running forums. Yes it is a little 'snobby' to say that, but formally a 'marathon' is a race and not a time trial...and more importantly a mass participation activity where finishing is considered a triumph for the average Joe or Jane. I happen to think the Nike record attempt hijacks the everyday heroism of all those folks grinding out winter training after or before work right now, but I do agree the superhuman element of the athletes involved in the Nike event was incredible...

pboutros 9y ago

It's totally a marathon! Sure, the conditions are lab perfect -- but these are also some of the best runners in the world.

chrisfosterelli 9y ago
I don't want to take away from their substantial achievement but I think it's an important distinction between "lab perfect" and "techniques that would not be allowed in any official marathon race in the world".
- alasdair_ 9y ago
  >"techniques that would not be allowed in any official marathon race in the world" (genuine question) is there only one official body in the world that determines what a "marathon" is? My understanding is that the Boston Marathon (which certainly seems to be a marathon) isn't considered a "real" marathon because of various reasons (weather, elevation, non-loop nature of the course etc.)
  - bronson 9y ago
    The IAAF. Boston is an excellent marathon but ineligible for world records.
zjaffee 9y ago
The original definition of a marathon involves running from Athens to Marathon in Greece, and when your average person thinks of a marathon, they think of the street races that happen all around the world. Marathon running isn't necessarily a track and field sport in the way the 100 meter sprint is.
- stonewhite 9y ago
  It is the other way around; running back from Marathon to Athens. The story takes place after Athenian Hoplites pushes back a Persian army into their ships at the Marathon shores, after which this ship sails to Athens to wreak havoc. Hoplites make the run from Marathon to Athens just in time to defend against Persians and successfully discourage them against further attacks. After the Battle of Marathon, hoplites who were in the war referred it to as "the run", "we ran", or had "he ran" carved in their tombstones etc. So Marathon became synonymous with running.
  - hjjiehebebe 9y ago
    TIL the Hoplites didn't run an official marathon
  - smogcutter 9y ago
    This is not correct. "We ran" refers to the hoplite charge during the battle itself, which was notable for being a long run at full tilt (although Herodotus likely exaggerates): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D112%3Asection%3D3 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... Here's the mention of "we ran" in Hansen: https://books.google.com/books?id=lAWEPUkz5sIC&pg=PT164&lpg=PT164&dq=hoplites+%22we+ran%22+battle+of+marathon&source=bl&ots=MgSSb5r0UN&sig=0KYJUR5acjzDmHWxl6tPe-mPcg4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyxc2t7YzYAhVmJsAKHTL4B2AQ6AEIWDAN#v=onepage&q=we%20ran&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=lAWEPUkz5sIC&pg=PT164&lpg=... The story of Pheidippides running from Marathon to Athens (and dying on arrival) is certainly apocryphal, but it's nevertheless the origin of the modern marathon.
    - stonewhite 9y ago
      Thanks for the correction and the links.
      - smogcutter 9y ago
        If you're interested in the period, check out the podcast Dan Carlin's Hardcore History. He's got a three part series on the Persians that's totally engrossing. For one thing, it's where I heard the "we ran" story about Marathon veterans. Carlin is a fantastic storyteller, and his stuff is very well researched.

appleiigs 9y ago

I don't know why runners are so snobby when it comes things like this. What if it was an official marathon where they run with very strong winds at their back. Would you consider that achievement worse than perfect lab like conditions? It's a certain distance, by foot. That's it. I also see snobbishness and even anger toward run-walkers. Even if they do the same distance in the same conditions.

teamhappy 9y ago
> What if it was an official marathon where they run with very strong winds at their back. The courses need to follow certain rules to mitigate the effect of tailwinds, slopes and things like that. That's why Boston isn't eligible for world records. Here's the rule: "The start and finish points of a course, measured along a theoretical straight line between them, shall not be further apart than 50% of the race distance." (http://www.aims-worldrunning.org/world-records.html http://www.aims-worldrunning.org/world-records.html)
- appleiigs 9y ago
  Ok cool. Thanks for the information. But just to address the original comments: "It's a little insulting to marathon runners to claim this is a 'marathon' IMO.".... We do consider the Boston Marathon to be a marathon, right?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - gamblor956 9y ago
    They're different types of marathon. Boston is a real marathon, run on a hilly course in whatever the weather is on the day of the race. This has meant rainstorms, 80+ degree weather, and everything in between. Nike's WR attempt is an experimental marathon, run on a track shielded from the wind, on a date and time chosen based on the temperature, cloud cover, and wind forecasts to be ideal for human long-distance performance running.
9y ago

sliverstorm 9y ago

Isn't this how the march of progress goes sometimes? Somebody does an impossible feat (with help & ideal conditions). They show it can be done. Then other people begin to replicate, and the ideal conditions & support start to be eliminated. Rock climbing jumps to mind.

alasdair_ 9y ago

>It's a little insulting to marathon runners to claim this is a 'marathon' IMO. I agree. Anything other than a 26.2 mile race in footwear common in the classical hellenistic period that terminates in the ancient town of Marathon in Greece is a little insulting to REAL marathon runners. /s

njarboe 9y ago
Marathon to Athens, I believe is the correct route.
- azeotropic 9y ago
  But first run from Athens to Sparta and back. If you happen to see Pan, it is permissible to stop and chat with him.

js2 9y ago

I've run over 25 marathons. A half-marathon is a weekly training run. I've got a 3:07 PR. I am not insulted. The limits of human performance are fascinating! > He drove onward, breaking the tape in two hours and 25 seconds. I just ran a marathon two weeks ago in 3:15:24. I'd only wanted to break 3:20 that day so I was more than satisfied. Yet I still found myself going over my race wondering why I couldn't find just one second per mile to go under 3:15. Just one second! The mental aspect of the marathon is my favorite part of running.

baddox 9y ago
Out of curiosity, do you track and monitor your progress during your runs? This article makes it sound like doing so is very important, which makes sense.
- brianwawok 9y ago
  GPS watches! Can't live without them.
  - js2 9y ago
    If it's not on Strava, did the run even happen? :-)
- js2 9y ago
  I do. I run with a Garmin, mostly to keep myself from running the first hour or so too fast. The rest of the race I check my splits (mile markers) but mostly run by feel. When I ran Chicago last year my Garmin lost the GPS signal so I just went with the pace group runners. Usually only the mid-size to large races have pacers, and you never know how good they are, but at Chicago the pacers may as well be professionals. Regardless, yes, running even effort is critical to the best performance. This can be tricky depending upon terrain, wind, and temperature. Also, personally do best going out a bit slow (the first 5K or so). Being able to pass runners as the race wears on is a huge psychological boost for me.

hsitz 9y ago

>It's a little insulting to marathon runners to claim this is a 'marathon' IMO. Well, the guys participating were three of the best marathoners in the world, probably one (Kipchoge) who is the best ever, so I doubt whether they or anybody involved were concerned about "insulting" marathon runners. Everybody was well aware that the conditions were different and would help create a faster time than possible in a regular marathon race. Baby steps. Once they have achieved sub-2 in "artificial" conditions, the idea of going sub-2 in an actual marathon race will seem easier, and will be the next item to check off.

FreeCrypto 9y ago
Exactly this. Kipchoge would probably be insulted that the OP uses the term "run" in describing anything that's slower than 5:15 pace.
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  Or perhaps he's not an asshole and considers running to be whatever the runner is happy with.
  - FreeCrypto 9y ago
    I think you're right, he seems like a super nice dude in his interviews :)

bhc3 9y ago

Oliver - as a fellow marathoner, I'll disagree on this. 26.2 is just a long run, with ever degrading legs. Even with the drafting behind the phalanx of runner, one's legs are being put through some rough work. I watched the Kipchoge doing this race. He was a beast, not a lab rat. Note that two other runners, with all the advantages, couldn't come close to what he did. For me, this was confirmation that humans do indeed have room to push the current world record further down.

olivermarks 9y ago
@bhc3 hey Hutch - you and I have run together in the past! Surprised this thread has the legs it has - I was merely pointing out the sterile (and arguably Nike marketing oriented) attempt at a sub 2 hour 26.2 mile effort was, despite being a super human effort, not a 'marathon' per se. This has been beaten to death elsewhere online in running forums. Yes it is a little 'snobby' to say that, but formally a 'marathon' is a race and not a time trial...and more importantly a mass participation activity where finishing is considered a triumph for the average Joe or Jane. I happen to think the Nike record attempt hijacks the everyday heroism of all those folks grinding out winter training after or before work right now, but I do agree the superhuman element of the athletes involved in the Nike event was incredible...