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> That’s great – for their engineering department. Well, no - it's great for you too. Nobody can buy anything if the site is down. First-time buyers are especi

> That’s great – for their engineering department. Well, no - it's great for you too. Nobody can buy anything if the site is down. First-time buyers are especially sensitive to that. If their first experience with Etsy is a timeout page they won't be back (we actually had numbers asserting as such). Amazon famously wrote that 100ms of additional latency cost them 1% of sales, and Etsy is very similar in that regard. > What about the guiding vision for their core business? It’s not enough to make IT top notch when their overall aim is floundering. The guiding vision was, and likely still is, to have Etsy be what it is today (but with much better execution, obviously). Amazon with a more hand-made slant to it. I saw this frequently when I was there - sellers want Etsy to be more like ArtFire or ArtYah is now, but that's not what Etsy's leadership and funders want Etsy to be. They want Etsy to be Amazon, but for unique items. Now sure, that's not what Rob Kalin wanted it to be. But that vision was lost years ago, way before Chad et. al took over. > As a customer and developer, I frequently felt that their communications and decisions missed the mark and heard this from fellow customers continually. No argument there. The decisions usually made sense internally, but the external communications were poor. I would not be surprised to find out it's part of why the C-suite was gutted. I'm really sorry you had to be a customer during that phase. Seriously. > Etsy needs to be run by artists and retailers, not technologists. They tried that. Rob Kalin is an artist, through and through. Turns out artists don't always make great business leaders. And let me tell you, definitively, Rob Kalin would have ruined that company had he stuck around for much longer than he did. > Part of the problem is that they want to address the things like eliminating mass produced goods as technology problems, to be eliminated with the right algorithm. It is a technology problem. Etsy can't possibly afford to hire enough people to sift through items manually looking for mass-produced goods. They'd go bankrupt. The marketplace is just way too big for that. Etsy can remain a small marketplace and do that, which is I'm guessing your preference, but that's not the preference of the VCs who backed Etsy. Unfortunately, money has the final say.

code_duck 9y ago
I realize that snappy pages help, as an engineer myself (who often depended on Etsy's API responses...). I appreciate the great job they did taking Etsy from the substandard heap it was circa 2009 to where it is now. My point is that Etsy needed more of a guiding light than their engineering department providing effective technology. Rob Kalin was not an artist - what was his art, Swimmy? BS? A couple wooden computer cases? In my perception he was a con-man hipster who dabbled in craft. I have no praise for him or anything he did, and am not suggesting his vision, whatever it was, or certainly his management, would have been better. I believe he is the one who imbued Etsy with a toxic culture from which that they are still suffering. One inept conman doesn't disprove 'artists' being management, and that's not what I called for - someone with retail experience would be nice, ideally online as well as the typical setting where Etsy members sell their wares offline like art galleries, craft fairs, jewelry stores, boutiques, and so forth. All the time I've dealt with Etsy, I've heard the excuse that it's impossible for them to police their market place in any sort of pro-active way. But the sellers in each category have no problem finding obvious violations in their categories every day, and reports have never been dealt with logically and promptly. I, and others, gave up reporting mass production and resellers after it seemed futile due to lack of response, or even Etsy would claim items that seemed like clear violations were not violations. I don't have a preference for Etsy's future, as I gave up attempting to use it years ago and have recommended to my friends and clients for years that they buy a domain and set up a shop they actually control, using shopify or big cartel to make it simple.
- BlanketApple 9y ago
  > My point is that Etsy needed more of a guiding light than their engineering department providing effective technology. They had that, though. Amazon for unique items. I think that's just not the guiding light you wanted for Etsy, but it's been there for a long time. They were missing the technology ~2009 up until a couple years ago. It was absolutely the most important problem at Etsy at that time. Now? I'll agree, not so much. > Rob Kalin was not an artist - what was his art, Swimmy? BS? A couple wooden computer cases? In my perception he was a con-man hipster who dabbled in craft. I have no love lost for Rob Kalin as a CEO, and I would never work in a business run by him again, but this is an extremely unfair characterization of him. He's an artist. Sorry. To call him otherwise is to pull a "no true scotsman." > someone with retail experience would be nice, ideally online as well as the typical setting where Etsy members sell their wares offline like art galleries, craft fairs, jewelry stores, boutiques, and so forth. Etsy had plenty of people like that in senior leadership roles. Not the C suite, sure, but high up there. I also don't see any reason why Etsy needs people like that, to be honest. Bezos had little (if any) retail experience before starting Amazon. Clearly hasn't impeded them any. > All the time I've dealt with Etsy, I've heard the excuse that it's impossible for them to police their market place in any sort of pro-active way. But the sellers in each category have no problem finding obvious violations in their categories every day, and reports have never been dealt with logically and promptly. You're grossly unaware and underestimating of the volume of support emails Etsy got (and probably it's even worse now). Sellers outnumber Etsy employees by a godawful amount. Reports outnumber Etsy employees by a godawful amount. Not sure if it's still the case, but we used to have so many reports that we needed employees to all go on rotations where they answered emails and went through reports. I personally must've gone through close to 1,000+ support emails and reports a year during my time there just doing these support rotations. The full-time community staff probably handled that much each day, if not more. Even with all that, I bet we answered maybe 25% of all reports and emails. And this was way, way before the IPO. > I don't have a preference for Etsy's future, as I gave up attempting to use it years ago and have recommended to my friends and clients for years that they buy a domain and set up a shop they actually control, using shopify or big cartel to make it simple. That's fine, but I think it's naive to assume Etsy's future would look anything other than this. Actively managing a marketplace of Etsy's size is a technology problem. You can bring up Myspace/etc. all day, but don't forget that in addition to monitoring for resellers and mass produced goods Etsy also has to watch out for: 1) Illegal activity e.g. money laundering 2) Pornographic/inappropriate items 3) Scammers 4) Legitimate support complaints (missing items etc.) 5) General complaints (I don't like this new feature, etc.) Support staff monitoring all of those numerous issues would bankrupt Etsy, even if they did farm it out to a developing nation for pennies.
code_duck 9y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15930796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15930796 If MySpace could employ people to sit around looking for the wrong pornography, Etsy could employ people to look through their marketplace for the wrong stores. This article explains exactly where we are at: solving the problem technologically hasn’t worked yet, and you have to have actual people look at it. Some knock-off mass produced junk is just as jarring when set amongst handmade art as pornography is when set among family pictures, if you’re an artist. People paying Etsy hundreds of dollars a month for their stores deserve a clean marketplace, and Etsy could hire a dozen human reviewers for the cost of one or two engineers. Of course, since my time, Etsy has slowly expanded their rules so that many of the things that would not be allowed six years ago are now encouraged.

code_duck 9y ago

I realize that snappy pages help, as an engineer myself (who often depended on Etsy's API responses...). I appreciate the great job they did taking Etsy from the substandard heap it was circa 2009 to where it is now. My point is that Etsy needed more of a guiding light than their engineering department providing effective technology. Rob Kalin was not an artist - what was his art, Swimmy? BS? A couple wooden computer cases? In my perception he was a con-man hipster who dabbled in craft. I have no praise for him or anything he did, and am not suggesting his vision, whatever it was, or certainly his management, would have been better. I believe he is the one who imbued Etsy with a toxic culture from which that they are still suffering. One inept conman doesn't disprove 'artists' being management, and that's not what I called for - someone with retail experience would be nice, ideally online as well as the typical setting where Etsy members sell their wares offline like art galleries, craft fairs, jewelry stores, boutiques, and so forth. All the time I've dealt with Etsy, I've heard the excuse that it's impossible for them to police their market place in any sort of pro-active way. But the sellers in each category have no problem finding obvious violations in their categories every day, and reports have never been dealt with logically and promptly. I, and others, gave up reporting mass production and resellers after it seemed futile due to lack of response, or even Etsy would claim items that seemed like clear violations were not violations. I don't have a preference for Etsy's future, as I gave up attempting to use it years ago and have recommended to my friends and clients for years that they buy a domain and set up a shop they actually control, using shopify or big cartel to make it simple.

BlanketApple 9y ago
> My point is that Etsy needed more of a guiding light than their engineering department providing effective technology. They had that, though. Amazon for unique items. I think that's just not the guiding light you wanted for Etsy, but it's been there for a long time. They were missing the technology ~2009 up until a couple years ago. It was absolutely the most important problem at Etsy at that time. Now? I'll agree, not so much. > Rob Kalin was not an artist - what was his art, Swimmy? BS? A couple wooden computer cases? In my perception he was a con-man hipster who dabbled in craft. I have no love lost for Rob Kalin as a CEO, and I would never work in a business run by him again, but this is an extremely unfair characterization of him. He's an artist. Sorry. To call him otherwise is to pull a "no true scotsman." > someone with retail experience would be nice, ideally online as well as the typical setting where Etsy members sell their wares offline like art galleries, craft fairs, jewelry stores, boutiques, and so forth. Etsy had plenty of people like that in senior leadership roles. Not the C suite, sure, but high up there. I also don't see any reason why Etsy needs people like that, to be honest. Bezos had little (if any) retail experience before starting Amazon. Clearly hasn't impeded them any. > All the time I've dealt with Etsy, I've heard the excuse that it's impossible for them to police their market place in any sort of pro-active way. But the sellers in each category have no problem finding obvious violations in their categories every day, and reports have never been dealt with logically and promptly. You're grossly unaware and underestimating of the volume of support emails Etsy got (and probably it's even worse now). Sellers outnumber Etsy employees by a godawful amount. Reports outnumber Etsy employees by a godawful amount. Not sure if it's still the case, but we used to have so many reports that we needed employees to all go on rotations where they answered emails and went through reports. I personally must've gone through close to 1,000+ support emails and reports a year during my time there just doing these support rotations. The full-time community staff probably handled that much each day, if not more. Even with all that, I bet we answered maybe 25% of all reports and emails. And this was way, way before the IPO. > I don't have a preference for Etsy's future, as I gave up attempting to use it years ago and have recommended to my friends and clients for years that they buy a domain and set up a shop they actually control, using shopify or big cartel to make it simple. That's fine, but I think it's naive to assume Etsy's future would look anything other than this. Actively managing a marketplace of Etsy's size is a technology problem. You can bring up Myspace/etc. all day, but don't forget that in addition to monitoring for resellers and mass produced goods Etsy also has to watch out for: 1) Illegal activity e.g. money laundering 2) Pornographic/inappropriate items 3) Scammers 4) Legitimate support complaints (missing items etc.) 5) General complaints (I don't like this new feature, etc.) Support staff monitoring all of those numerous issues would bankrupt Etsy, even if they did farm it out to a developing nation for pennies.

code_duck 9y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15930796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15930796 If MySpace could employ people to sit around looking for the wrong pornography, Etsy could employ people to look through their marketplace for the wrong stores. This article explains exactly where we are at: solving the problem technologically hasn’t worked yet, and you have to have actual people look at it. Some knock-off mass produced junk is just as jarring when set amongst handmade art as pornography is when set among family pictures, if you’re an artist. People paying Etsy hundreds of dollars a month for their stores deserve a clean marketplace, and Etsy could hire a dozen human reviewers for the cost of one or two engineers. Of course, since my time, Etsy has slowly expanded their rules so that many of the things that would not be allowed six years ago are now encouraged.