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We are both making a claim. He has provided no evidence at all, and obviously hasn't read the literature. The claim here is that the variance in learning rate

We are both making a claim. He has provided no evidence at all, and obviously hasn't read the literature. The claim here is that the variance in learning rate is absolutely tiny. Think about this. He's basically claiming that despite a large known population variances in IQ and MA, there is no variance in learning rate. Despite research showing ritalin increases learning rate in a large fraction of society, this increase was meaningless. Despite verbal learning test normative data showing non zero variance, the variance is still zero. There is a large body of literature comparing learning rate in different populations in both human and animal models. Take any study on learning rate, even the ones comparing "normal" to abnormal. Go to the methods and find the variance for each group. See it's non-zero, but often so large that differences between groups is hard to see. Now, if you accept that learning rate has a non-zero variance, and also that learning rate decreases over time (well supported in the literature as well, and no I'm not going to find papers) and that time is finite, then the only conclusion you can make is that some people have a much higher chance of doing well academically. Not only that but there will be some people who despite trying will never be able to do well. I don't see how stating this shocking to anyone at all - in a population of some 7 billion, there are millions of people >3 standard deviations from the mean.

loewenskind 16y ago
>He's basically claiming that despite a large known population variances in IQ and MA, there is no variance in learning rate. If this is what he's claiming it's obviously silly. A more plausible claim would be that the rate at which one could learn may be close to equal provided an optimum teaching method is used on a case by case basis. What I mean here is: I think all the literature you're referencing about learning rates doesn't conclusively prove that it's the students at fault. It could be the teaching method. I've experienced first hand that some people who seemed to not "get it" for some subject could in fact understand it quite well when it was presented in a way they understood (perhaps they didn't see the relevance, perhaps they didn't have the proper frame of reference to understand the normal explanation or a poor grasp of those references). For me it's just too simple to say "everything's fine, those people are just too stupid. Bad genetics". What if it's not? Then we're throwing away a lot of potential unnecessarily. And part of the reason I suspect this to be the case (to some unknown degree) is because plenty of teaching methods that are still in use are not even the best known method (e.g. how most schools teach a second language).
- corruption 16y ago
  It is clear that there are genetic differences in brains that cause large differences in "learning rate" - for lack of a better term. Interpret this how you want, but it's obvious to those in the field what this means (I talked to a researcher today to check my assumptions here to make sure!). It is what it is. If my optimised (via teaching, drugs, augmentation etc) learning rate is lower than your's then so be it. So what? Why do you feel the need to make us equals, I accept your superiority in learning rate and do not care one iota.
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    I don't feel the need for us to be equal. If feel that the idea that we're not is often a cop out to make ourselves feel better about people who could have been our equal but aren't. That is to say, even if you're right and there is a massive difference that no technique could ever overcome, there are a lot of people who could have done better than they actually did. Maybe their environment destroyed their chances. Maybe they had bad teachers. Who knows. I'm just not comfortable writing them off as "stupid". Education is too important to ever assume we have the best system possible. No matter how good it is.
    - corruption 16y ago
      Isn't there a contradiction here: "I don't feel the need for us to be equal. If feel that the idea that we're not is often a cop out..." If the evidence supports the conclusion, we must accept it regardless of our personal biases. My general claim is that each person has a range of capabilities that they are born with, and that this range is ~ normally distributed across the population. By definition these ranges do not overlap for all n. This is supported by both anecdotal, population data and experimental animal and human models to the best of my knowledge. As for your second paragraph, well as you can see I never claimed to the contrary. I completely agree that one should find a method of learning to maximise their individual potential, and that the range of what is possible for an individual is quite large - see my claim above. In fact I am very close to someone working on this very topic - determining the optimal learning strategy for children to maximise their learning rate.

loewenskind 16y ago

>He's basically claiming that despite a large known population variances in IQ and MA, there is no variance in learning rate. If this is what he's claiming it's obviously silly. A more plausible claim would be that the rate at which one could learn may be close to equal provided an optimum teaching method is used on a case by case basis. What I mean here is: I think all the literature you're referencing about learning rates doesn't conclusively prove that it's the students at fault. It could be the teaching method. I've experienced first hand that some people who seemed to not "get it" for some subject could in fact understand it quite well when it was presented in a way they understood (perhaps they didn't see the relevance, perhaps they didn't have the proper frame of reference to understand the normal explanation or a poor grasp of those references). For me it's just too simple to say "everything's fine, those people are just too stupid. Bad genetics". What if it's not? Then we're throwing away a lot of potential unnecessarily. And part of the reason I suspect this to be the case (to some unknown degree) is because plenty of teaching methods that are still in use are not even the best known method (e.g. how most schools teach a second language).

corruption 16y ago
It is clear that there are genetic differences in brains that cause large differences in "learning rate" - for lack of a better term. Interpret this how you want, but it's obvious to those in the field what this means (I talked to a researcher today to check my assumptions here to make sure!). It is what it is. If my optimised (via teaching, drugs, augmentation etc) learning rate is lower than your's then so be it. So what? Why do you feel the need to make us equals, I accept your superiority in learning rate and do not care one iota.
- loewenskind 16y ago
  I don't feel the need for us to be equal. If feel that the idea that we're not is often a cop out to make ourselves feel better about people who could have been our equal but aren't. That is to say, even if you're right and there is a massive difference that no technique could ever overcome, there are a lot of people who could have done better than they actually did. Maybe their environment destroyed their chances. Maybe they had bad teachers. Who knows. I'm just not comfortable writing them off as "stupid". Education is too important to ever assume we have the best system possible. No matter how good it is.
  - corruption 16y ago
    Isn't there a contradiction here: "I don't feel the need for us to be equal. If feel that the idea that we're not is often a cop out..." If the evidence supports the conclusion, we must accept it regardless of our personal biases. My general claim is that each person has a range of capabilities that they are born with, and that this range is ~ normally distributed across the population. By definition these ranges do not overlap for all n. This is supported by both anecdotal, population data and experimental animal and human models to the best of my knowledge. As for your second paragraph, well as you can see I never claimed to the contrary. I completely agree that one should find a method of learning to maximise their individual potential, and that the range of what is possible for an individual is quite large - see my claim above. In fact I am very close to someone working on this very topic - determining the optimal learning strategy for children to maximise their learning rate.