6 ms·

In the Netherlands we require ID to vote and having an ID is not free but it is compulsory. In most cities there is only 1 place where you can get an ID. You al

by jules 9y ago

In the Netherlands we require ID to vote and having an ID is not free but it is compulsory. In most cities there is only 1 place where you can get an ID. You also automatically get a hard to forge letter in the mail that you have to bring with you. Seems like common sense to me. The idea that anybody can vote (multiple times, even) seems crazy to anybody outside the US. Don't you need an ID many times in your life? How do you prevent people from getting married / applying for welfare / getting a job in somebody else's name? How do you verify somebody's age for age restricted activities?

icc97 9y ago
All over Europe they have a requirement that you carry ID at all times. It's very handy for governments. It is also a hangover from Nazi occupation. The UK has no ID that you have to carry at all times, nor does the US. So where as requiring ID in the Netherlands is a non issue it's a massive issue in the US, especially as many people don't need a passport if they never leave the US. Personally I prefer the US and UK systems. I like the basic level of anonymity that you have from not having to carry ID.
- jules 9y ago
  The question is not whether you have to carry an ID on you at all times, but whether you have to show your ID to vote. Having an ID does not really change anything with respect to anonymity, unless you have to carry it. Something that really impacts anonymity and privacy: mobile phones.
  - cr1895 9y ago
    >The question is not whether you have to carry an ID on you at all times, but whether you have to show your ID to vote. No, but it is nontheless relevant: in the Netherlands one is compelled to carry ID. Absolutely no such requirement exists in the US. So it's a different situation where an ID is required to vote in a country where carrying ID is already compelled compared to requiring an ID to vote in a country where no such ID-carrying requirements exist and many find the notion of compelled ID-carrying odious.
    - jules 9y ago
      That would be a good point if an ID was not required for many other activities. I don't understand why people think it's voter suppression that you need an ID to vote, but not, say, marriage suppression that you need an ID to marry.
      - cr1895 9y ago
        Requiring an ID isn’t in itself voter suppression. Actions taken that reduce (ease of) access to obtaining that ID is suppression. A marriage also isn’t as time-sensitive as a vote, so that’s somewhat different. If someone who lacked ID goes to the poll to vote and is rejected for not having ID, this is different from going to the City Hall to register a marriage. You can do the marriage on another day. The vote, not so much.
        jules 9y ago
        Why can't you get the ID some time before the vote?
- osullivj 9y ago
  In terms of political philosophy it's a fundamental issue. What is paramount? The sovereignty of the individual, or the government?
- doikor 9y ago
  > All over Europe they have a requirement that you carry ID at all times. This varies country by country. I would say roughly half the countries require one and the other half not (and even less require it for foreign citizens) There is some other weirdness though. As we are in the Schengen area there is no border control and thus the police have been given the authority to look for people here illegally and thus they are allowed to ask anyone to identify themselves basically without any reason. If you can't identify yourself they can take you to the police station to verify who you are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area#Overview_of_national_identity_cards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the... And in some places (like Finland) you can vote without one if you can prove who you are in some other way (for example have a relative with you who has one and the police give out temporary free ID cards for voting). Though as the drivers license works as a valid id in Finland it usually isn't much of an issue (very few actually have the official id card thingie). Also everyone registered to vote automatically. For early voting you can use any polling station (on the actual election day you have to use the one assigned to you)
vm 9y ago
Voting multiple times doesn't happen, at least not easily. The U.S. voting system requires people to register ahead of time. They are assigned a specific voting location. When that person arrives s/he must verify their address/some info. Certainly not fool-proof, but enough hurdles to weed out fraud. Seems to work as voter fraud is minimal.
- lightbyte 9y ago
  Funnily enough the few reported instances of actual voters voting multiple times this past election were (almost?) all people attempting to vote multiple times for Trump. One such instance: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/01/27/a-trump-supporter-was-charged-with-voting-twice-her-lawyer-says-she-shouldnt-stand-trial-2/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/01/2...
Toboe 9y ago
>In the Netherlands we require ID to vote and having an ID is not free but it is compulsory. But the easy access point remains, doesn't it? Or would you consider "I wanted to vote, but just couldn't get an ID" a plausible excuse in the Netherlands? Edit: Clarification, excuse to not vote.
- apexalpha 9y ago
  Not having an ID isn't a plausible excuse for anything. You really need to have your ID.
  - lostcolony 9y ago
    "I lost my ID, I need a new one", "Sure. Please show me your ID so I can ensure you are who you say you are and issue you a new one", "I can't do that, I lost it", "Then please wait until you receive the certified letter attesting to the fact you are who you say you are", "But I need to vote", "You'll need ID for that", "I know, but I lost it", "Then you need to get a new one". Repeat.
    - jules 9y ago
      I don't understand the problem. If you do not have an ID you do not get to vote. The reason why you do not have an ID is irrelevant; without an ID they cannot verify that you are casting your own vote. Without this requirement it would be possible for people to buy other people's "stempas" (the letter that you get in the mail that allows you to cast one vote). That would be very bad because it allows wealthy people to cast multiple votes. This is also why there are strict rules about only one person entering into a voting booth, and why you are not allowed to take a picture of your ballot.
      - lostcolony 9y ago
        Except that's how it works in the US, and voter fraud rarely ever happens. And the problem is it disenfranchises people. As others mentioned, it really depends on what you want to prioritize on.
Latty 9y ago
I'm actually from the UK - but either way, I feel like my post made it clear that I don't think having ID is a problem, the problem is attempt to increase friction on voting for a subset of the population by making getting that ID harder in areas where your opposition has more supporters. The issue is that the republicans keep trying to push through legislation that requires ID to be shown, while providing no guarantees on ID availability. If they want it to go through, they just need to add the guarantee and then it can't be used for partisan gain. They refuse to do so, and have repeatedly abused ID requirements when passed by restricting access in democrat-supporting areas.

by jules 9y ago

icc97 9y ago

All over Europe they have a requirement that you carry ID at all times. It's very handy for governments. It is also a hangover from Nazi occupation. The UK has no ID that you have to carry at all times, nor does the US. So where as requiring ID in the Netherlands is a non issue it's a massive issue in the US, especially as many people don't need a passport if they never leave the US. Personally I prefer the US and UK systems. I like the basic level of anonymity that you have from not having to carry ID.

jules 9y ago
The question is not whether you have to carry an ID on you at all times, but whether you have to show your ID to vote. Having an ID does not really change anything with respect to anonymity, unless you have to carry it. Something that really impacts anonymity and privacy: mobile phones.
- cr1895 9y ago
  >The question is not whether you have to carry an ID on you at all times, but whether you have to show your ID to vote. No, but it is nontheless relevant: in the Netherlands one is compelled to carry ID. Absolutely no such requirement exists in the US. So it's a different situation where an ID is required to vote in a country where carrying ID is already compelled compared to requiring an ID to vote in a country where no such ID-carrying requirements exist and many find the notion of compelled ID-carrying odious.
  - jules 9y ago
    That would be a good point if an ID was not required for many other activities. I don't understand why people think it's voter suppression that you need an ID to vote, but not, say, marriage suppression that you need an ID to marry.
    - cr1895 9y ago
      Requiring an ID isn’t in itself voter suppression. Actions taken that reduce (ease of) access to obtaining that ID is suppression. A marriage also isn’t as time-sensitive as a vote, so that’s somewhat different. If someone who lacked ID goes to the poll to vote and is rejected for not having ID, this is different from going to the City Hall to register a marriage. You can do the marriage on another day. The vote, not so much.
      - jules 9y ago
        Why can't you get the ID some time before the vote?
osullivj 9y ago
In terms of political philosophy it's a fundamental issue. What is paramount? The sovereignty of the individual, or the government?
doikor 9y ago
> All over Europe they have a requirement that you carry ID at all times. This varies country by country. I would say roughly half the countries require one and the other half not (and even less require it for foreign citizens) There is some other weirdness though. As we are in the Schengen area there is no border control and thus the police have been given the authority to look for people here illegally and thus they are allowed to ask anyone to identify themselves basically without any reason. If you can't identify yourself they can take you to the police station to verify who you are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area#Overview_of_national_identity_cards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the... And in some places (like Finland) you can vote without one if you can prove who you are in some other way (for example have a relative with you who has one and the police give out temporary free ID cards for voting). Though as the drivers license works as a valid id in Finland it usually isn't much of an issue (very few actually have the official id card thingie). Also everyone registered to vote automatically. For early voting you can use any polling station (on the actual election day you have to use the one assigned to you)

vm 9y ago

Voting multiple times doesn't happen, at least not easily. The U.S. voting system requires people to register ahead of time. They are assigned a specific voting location. When that person arrives s/he must verify their address/some info. Certainly not fool-proof, but enough hurdles to weed out fraud. Seems to work as voter fraud is minimal.

lightbyte 9y ago
Funnily enough the few reported instances of actual voters voting multiple times this past election were (almost?) all people attempting to vote multiple times for Trump. One such instance: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/01/27/a-trump-supporter-was-charged-with-voting-twice-her-lawyer-says-she-shouldnt-stand-trial-2/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/01/2...

Toboe 9y ago

>In the Netherlands we require ID to vote and having an ID is not free but it is compulsory. But the easy access point remains, doesn't it? Or would you consider "I wanted to vote, but just couldn't get an ID" a plausible excuse in the Netherlands? Edit: Clarification, excuse to not vote.

apexalpha 9y ago
Not having an ID isn't a plausible excuse for anything. You really need to have your ID.
- lostcolony 9y ago
  "I lost my ID, I need a new one", "Sure. Please show me your ID so I can ensure you are who you say you are and issue you a new one", "I can't do that, I lost it", "Then please wait until you receive the certified letter attesting to the fact you are who you say you are", "But I need to vote", "You'll need ID for that", "I know, but I lost it", "Then you need to get a new one". Repeat.
  - jules 9y ago
    I don't understand the problem. If you do not have an ID you do not get to vote. The reason why you do not have an ID is irrelevant; without an ID they cannot verify that you are casting your own vote. Without this requirement it would be possible for people to buy other people's "stempas" (the letter that you get in the mail that allows you to cast one vote). That would be very bad because it allows wealthy people to cast multiple votes. This is also why there are strict rules about only one person entering into a voting booth, and why you are not allowed to take a picture of your ballot.
    - lostcolony 9y ago
      Except that's how it works in the US, and voter fraud rarely ever happens. And the problem is it disenfranchises people. As others mentioned, it really depends on what you want to prioritize on.

Latty 9y ago

I'm actually from the UK - but either way, I feel like my post made it clear that I don't think having ID is a problem, the problem is attempt to increase friction on voting for a subset of the population by making getting that ID harder in areas where your opposition has more supporters. The issue is that the republicans keep trying to push through legislation that requires ID to be shown, while providing no guarantees on ID availability. If they want it to go through, they just need to add the guarantee and then it can't be used for partisan gain. They refuse to do so, and have repeatedly abused ID requirements when passed by restricting access in democrat-supporting areas.