9 ms·

US woman accused of laundering Bitcoin for Islamic State

diggan 9y ago
From the article: "Prosecutors said that Ms Shahnaz obtained a Pakistani passport in July and booked a flight to Pakistan with a layover in Istanbul, intending to travel to Syria. She was arrested at John F Kennedy airport carrying $9,500 in cash, just under the limit of $10,000 that a person can legally take out of the country without declaring the funds. Searches of her electronic devices showed numerous searches for Islamic State-related material. " Also the following: "Prosecutors say she took out fraudulent loans of $85,000 (£63,000) in order to buy the bitcoin online." How you take out a fraudulent loan? How can they know her intent from just a couple of searches? Lots of information missing from this article, and makes me think that this woman commited thoughtcrime rather than an actual crime...
- soVeryTired 9y ago
  > How you take out a fraudulent loan? Presumably you commit fraud on your loan application.
- a2tech 9y ago
  She may have falsified documents or misrepresented her intentions when getting the loans. That would make them fraudulent. If you had a US citizen as a coconspirator it's not a bad way to get a ton of money really-have them blow up their good name to take a series of crappy loans, use them to buy Bitcoin, flee to Pakistan. Sure you'd be burning your bridges in the US but if you were planning on living in a terrorist camp somewhere, you're not really concerned with that I imagine.
- pjc50 9y ago
  This is a summary. You might want to read the actual press release with the actual indictment rather than make up accusations of "thoughtcrime". https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/long-island-woman-indicted-bank-fraud-and-money-laundering-support-terrorists https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/long-island-woman-indic... Also, it's an indictment. The actual evidence will be presented at the trial.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    That may be true. However, have you been blind to the constant discussion that the police are more than willing to confiscate money and leave you be? And it is an indictment, that can be rescinded. The funds themselves can be charged.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      She lied to obtain loans and sent money to ISIS. Seems like real crimes to me. The fact that police and prosecutorial abuses exist doesn't mean that they're happening here.
      - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
        That's what the police allege. She claims that it was direct humanitarian aid to the peoples in Syria.
        ams6110 9y ago
        That is why we have due process to get at the truth (or at least the most plausible explanation).
        mikeash 9y ago
        Sure. It sounds like the police have enough evidence to move forward with a trial, and then the court will decide innocence or guilt. That's how it's supposed to work. There's nothing in any of this, as far as I can see, to support your suggestions of police misconduct, or the other fellow's suggestions of thoughtcrime.
      - ringaroundthetx 9y ago
        Joining the Knights of Rojava, or Peshmerga, or the Women's Protection Unit YPG looks just like this. They all involve a layover in Istanbul They all involve wiring money, sometimes to you for the free tickets They all involve making multiple internet searches of factions in Syria and none of them involve getting arrested, simply because they aren't ISIS Not buying it. The indictment doesn't give details, and the summary the DOJ has lacks specifics on how it determined the bitcoin was going to ISIS, or that she wasn't just speculating on bitcoin. The point is that these are prerequisites for the governments case. The only difference when joining the other factions is that the US won't scoop you up at JFK or in Istanbul if they think you are joining the other factions, and aren't muslim.
- belorn 9y ago
  I am pretty sure that taking a loan with the intention to leave the country and skipping out of repaying is fraudulent. Naturally its up to the prosecutor to prove the intent.
- toyg 9y ago
  You don’t just show up to the bank asking for a loan “because I want it”, you have to state what you want it for and how you intend to repay it. The bank will then assess if your request makes sense, and whether you can afford it, before granting it. I guess a bank wouldn’t loan money “to help refugees” or “to buy bitcoins”, so anything she’s stated was likely false, hence fraud.
  - chillwaves 9y ago
    Balance transfer loans are "because I want it" and I get offers for those all the time, up to the limit of my credit for an individual account (I have many) which exceeds $30,000.
- mancerayder 9y ago
  How were they able to search electronic devices? It's that easy / routine now at airports?
  - LV-426 9y ago
    I’ll never bring my phone on an international flight again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13645825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13645825 I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Protection: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13453189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13453189 A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629593 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629593 US Customs block Canadian man after reading his Scruff profile: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13702981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13702981 The last one didn't even happen on US soil but at Vancouver airport; there are now more than 600 US customs agents stationed in multiple airports around the world: Dublin and Shannon in Ireland; Aruba; Freeport and Nassau in The Bahamas; Bermuda; Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates; and Calgary, Toronto, Edmonton, Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, and Winnipeg in Canada.
  - stevenwoo 9y ago
    Customs can detain you until you unlock the device.
- gozur88 9y ago
  You take out a fraudulent loan by making misrepresentations of some variety on the loan documents.
austenallred 9y ago
> Her lawyer, Steve Zissou, said she was sending money overseas to help Syrian refugees. > "What she saw made her devoted to lessening the suffering of a lot of the Syrian refugees and everything she does is for that purpose," Mr Zissou said outside the courthouse. That’s a hell of a defense
- RyanShook 9y ago
  Go big or go to jail I suppose...
- ForRealsies 9y ago
  This defense might actually work in Germany/Sweden.
  - RasputinsBro 9y ago
    If you actually believe that, I have two pieces of advice for you: 1) Stop reading Breitbart / Dailymail. 2) Go travel a bit.
- KasianFranks 9y ago
  The Life Aquatic Steve?
- boomboomsubban 9y ago
  It's plausible on all accounts. I doubt a terrorist group would have issues lying about their goals, and legitimate charities allegedly being terrorist fronts isn't that rare.
lkerrekfjk 9y ago
> Ms Shahnaz was born in Pakistan and worked as a lab technician in the US. I'm not american, though I spend some time in US, mostly in Maine. Every-time I hear this kind of stories, I can't help but thinking: you go through all that trouble to immigrate to US to build yourself a lot of opportunities for your life and all you end up doing is shit like these? while millions of people are waiting in line wishing for a better life? Same for anybody living an Europe who rushed to go live in the Caliphate... while people are fleeing these very places because of the insane violence... I can't understand this.
- pcunite 9y ago
  I feel the same way, in fact, I think the truth of what is really happening with stories like this is probably stranger.
- VeronicaJJ123 9y ago
  At the core of this confusion is Islam. Islam is not just a religion it is a code for entire life. I have met many Pakistani people who frown on the fact that USA allows women to walk around without Hijab. They would prefer Sharia over US constitution any day. They would love to see Pork banned. These are educated people and not some radical morons. Sadly for American approach towards Islam has been that "Religion is good, some people are bad" in reality that should be "People are more or less same, religious ideology is bad". Unless the American society confronts Islam it is going to be hard for a young Muslim person to appreciate and support the freedoms.
- throw901232 9y ago
  I was in the US an H1B worker highly skilled in a top company. I wanted to be a US citizen. US is a great country. But I have to wait 10 years minimum (India queue) to get a greencard and my wife cannot work because is an H4 visa holder. So I left US and immigrated to Canada and is a citizen now. US should stop taking in people thru diversity visas and family categories, but skilled people like me who wants to contribute and make it big in life are made to wait forever. Your loss US, your loss. US' immigration system is broken. Diversity visa system & the entire family tree of that person moving to the US in the course of time. What a burden to the US taxpayers !. While skilled workers like me bringing high value to the US economy are being pushed away. US immigration system is a joke. Take a cue from Canada's express entry system and learn.
KasianFranks 9y ago
Proof that crypto is bad. Good work HN!
killjoywashere 9y ago
I get the sense that bitcoin, all these coins, are going the way of Tor: ostensibly an innocent channel. In fact, the dominant activity is foul in the extreme.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
boomboomsubban 9y ago
The arrest on the verge of her alleged flight to Syria makes this sound very similar to the FBI undercover "terrorist" stings. She was doing nothing obviously wrong at the airport, so the arrest signals they were expecting her.

From the article: "Prosecutors said that Ms Shahnaz obtained a Pakistani passport in July and booked a flight to Pakistan with a layover in Istanbul, intending to travel to Syria. She was arrested at John F Kennedy airport carrying $9,500 in cash, just under the limit of $10,000 that a person can legally take out of the country without declaring the funds. Searches of her electronic devices showed numerous searches for Islamic State-related material. " Also the following: "Prosecutors say she took out fraudulent loans of $85,000 (£63,000) in order to buy the bitcoin online." How you take out a fraudulent loan? How can they know her intent from just a couple of searches? Lots of information missing from this article, and makes me think that this woman commited thoughtcrime rather than an actual crime...

soVeryTired 9y ago
> How you take out a fraudulent loan? Presumably you commit fraud on your loan application.
a2tech 9y ago
She may have falsified documents or misrepresented her intentions when getting the loans. That would make them fraudulent. If you had a US citizen as a coconspirator it's not a bad way to get a ton of money really-have them blow up their good name to take a series of crappy loans, use them to buy Bitcoin, flee to Pakistan. Sure you'd be burning your bridges in the US but if you were planning on living in a terrorist camp somewhere, you're not really concerned with that I imagine.
pjc50 9y ago
This is a summary. You might want to read the actual press release with the actual indictment rather than make up accusations of "thoughtcrime". https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/long-island-woman-indicted-bank-fraud-and-money-laundering-support-terrorists https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/long-island-woman-indic... Also, it's an indictment. The actual evidence will be presented at the trial.
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  That may be true. However, have you been blind to the constant discussion that the police are more than willing to confiscate money and leave you be? And it is an indictment, that can be rescinded. The funds themselves can be charged.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    She lied to obtain loans and sent money to ISIS. Seems like real crimes to me. The fact that police and prosecutorial abuses exist doesn't mean that they're happening here.
    - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
      That's what the police allege. She claims that it was direct humanitarian aid to the peoples in Syria.
      - ams6110 9y ago
        That is why we have due process to get at the truth (or at least the most plausible explanation).
      - mikeash 9y ago
        Sure. It sounds like the police have enough evidence to move forward with a trial, and then the court will decide innocence or guilt. That's how it's supposed to work. There's nothing in any of this, as far as I can see, to support your suggestions of police misconduct, or the other fellow's suggestions of thoughtcrime.
    - ringaroundthetx 9y ago
      Joining the Knights of Rojava, or Peshmerga, or the Women's Protection Unit YPG looks just like this. They all involve a layover in Istanbul They all involve wiring money, sometimes to you for the free tickets They all involve making multiple internet searches of factions in Syria and none of them involve getting arrested, simply because they aren't ISIS Not buying it. The indictment doesn't give details, and the summary the DOJ has lacks specifics on how it determined the bitcoin was going to ISIS, or that she wasn't just speculating on bitcoin. The point is that these are prerequisites for the governments case. The only difference when joining the other factions is that the US won't scoop you up at JFK or in Istanbul if they think you are joining the other factions, and aren't muslim.
belorn 9y ago
I am pretty sure that taking a loan with the intention to leave the country and skipping out of repaying is fraudulent. Naturally its up to the prosecutor to prove the intent.
toyg 9y ago
You don’t just show up to the bank asking for a loan “because I want it”, you have to state what you want it for and how you intend to repay it. The bank will then assess if your request makes sense, and whether you can afford it, before granting it. I guess a bank wouldn’t loan money “to help refugees” or “to buy bitcoins”, so anything she’s stated was likely false, hence fraud.
- chillwaves 9y ago
  Balance transfer loans are "because I want it" and I get offers for those all the time, up to the limit of my credit for an individual account (I have many) which exceeds $30,000.
mancerayder 9y ago
How were they able to search electronic devices? It's that easy / routine now at airports?
- LV-426 9y ago
  I’ll never bring my phone on an international flight again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13645825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13645825 I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Protection: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13453189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13453189 A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629593 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629593 US Customs block Canadian man after reading his Scruff profile: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13702981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13702981 The last one didn't even happen on US soil but at Vancouver airport; there are now more than 600 US customs agents stationed in multiple airports around the world: Dublin and Shannon in Ireland; Aruba; Freeport and Nassau in The Bahamas; Bermuda; Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates; and Calgary, Toronto, Edmonton, Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, and Winnipeg in Canada.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Customs can detain you until you unlock the device.
gozur88 9y ago
You take out a fraudulent loan by making misrepresentations of some variety on the loan documents.

austenallred 9y ago

> Her lawyer, Steve Zissou, said she was sending money overseas to help Syrian refugees. > "What she saw made her devoted to lessening the suffering of a lot of the Syrian refugees and everything she does is for that purpose," Mr Zissou said outside the courthouse. That’s a hell of a defense

RyanShook 9y ago
Go big or go to jail I suppose...
ForRealsies 9y ago
This defense might actually work in Germany/Sweden.
- RasputinsBro 9y ago
  If you actually believe that, I have two pieces of advice for you: 1) Stop reading Breitbart / Dailymail. 2) Go travel a bit.
KasianFranks 9y ago
The Life Aquatic Steve?
boomboomsubban 9y ago
It's plausible on all accounts. I doubt a terrorist group would have issues lying about their goals, and legitimate charities allegedly being terrorist fronts isn't that rare.

lkerrekfjk 9y ago

> Ms Shahnaz was born in Pakistan and worked as a lab technician in the US. I'm not american, though I spend some time in US, mostly in Maine. Every-time I hear this kind of stories, I can't help but thinking: you go through all that trouble to immigrate to US to build yourself a lot of opportunities for your life and all you end up doing is shit like these? while millions of people are waiting in line wishing for a better life? Same for anybody living an Europe who rushed to go live in the Caliphate... while people are fleeing these very places because of the insane violence... I can't understand this.

pcunite 9y ago
I feel the same way, in fact, I think the truth of what is really happening with stories like this is probably stranger.
VeronicaJJ123 9y ago
At the core of this confusion is Islam. Islam is not just a religion it is a code for entire life. I have met many Pakistani people who frown on the fact that USA allows women to walk around without Hijab. They would prefer Sharia over US constitution any day. They would love to see Pork banned. These are educated people and not some radical morons. Sadly for American approach towards Islam has been that "Religion is good, some people are bad" in reality that should be "People are more or less same, religious ideology is bad". Unless the American society confronts Islam it is going to be hard for a young Muslim person to appreciate and support the freedoms.
throw901232 9y ago
I was in the US an H1B worker highly skilled in a top company. I wanted to be a US citizen. US is a great country. But I have to wait 10 years minimum (India queue) to get a greencard and my wife cannot work because is an H4 visa holder. So I left US and immigrated to Canada and is a citizen now. US should stop taking in people thru diversity visas and family categories, but skilled people like me who wants to contribute and make it big in life are made to wait forever. Your loss US, your loss. US' immigration system is broken. Diversity visa system & the entire family tree of that person moving to the US in the course of time. What a burden to the US taxpayers !. While skilled workers like me bringing high value to the US economy are being pushed away. US immigration system is a joke. Take a cue from Canada's express entry system and learn.

KasianFranks 9y ago

Proof that crypto is bad. Good work HN!

killjoywashere 9y ago

I get the sense that bitcoin, all these coins, are going the way of Tor: ostensibly an innocent channel. In fact, the dominant activity is foul in the extreme.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

boomboomsubban 9y ago

The arrest on the verge of her alleged flight to Syria makes this sound very similar to the FBI undercover "terrorist" stings. She was doing nothing obviously wrong at the airport, so the arrest signals they were expecting her.