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The author says that it's safer to discuss "controversial" ideas in Beijing than America, but I wonder if that's partly because the ideas in question aren't act
by Buldak 9y ago
The author says that it's safer to discuss "controversial" ideas in Beijing than America, but I wonder if that's partly because the ideas in question aren't actually controversial in Beijing. Presumably the ideas the author has in mind are those that might be interpreted to impugn certain disadvantaged groups. But if I found it more easy to say "gay people are degenerates" in Beijing, I don't think I would take that as evidence that free speech norms are more robust there--it might just mean that homophobia is the norm.
- simonbyrne 9y agoAlso, perhaps the authors status in San Francisco means that any comments he makes will be more likely to get attention (and hence criticism) than in China.
- pavlov 9y agoIn China, the author is a visiting foreign multimillionaire — the type of person whose conversation will be enthusiastically received no matter the content.
- squarefoot 9y agoThat would likely be the reaction in whatever country he was visiting. Being multimillionaire and foreign makes the difference. Contracts with government == money+jobs == votes -> power. Contracts with politician owned company == money -> power.
- marme 9y agothis is exactly the case. Try saying "taiwan is an independent country" in beijing and see how well that statement is received
- xster 9y agoSeems like a sensible theme to explore but is this data or conjecture? I'd make a similarly anecdotal conjecture that you'd be met with rigorous debate but your social character standing won't be affected by bringing this topic up, nor would it be socially acceptable for your opponent to use ad hominem at any point. This is the theme the author is addressing.
- a_bonobo 9y agoEven Justin Bieber is banned because 'he has engaged in a series of bad behaviours, both in his social life and during a previous performance in China, which caused discontent among the public', and he isn't even politically active or anything. China's public sphere is highly controlled. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/21/justin-bieber-banned-from-china-bad-behaviour-purify-discontent https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/21/justin-bieber-...
- a_bonobo 9y agoOr this, just showed up on my Twitter stream: >A Chinese man has been jailed for a year for stamping on a portrait of Mongol ruler Genghis Khan, after being found guilty of inciting ethnic hatred. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42364214?ocid=socialflow_twitter http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42364214?ocid=socialflow_...
- bmc7505 9y ago> it might just mean that homophobia is the norm Or it could mean nobody understands your English. Does @sama even speak Chinese?
- mephitix 9y agoYeah, whatever points this article had were completely marred by terrible examples. Saying it's easier to talk about things in China vs US. I've been to China and you can get thrown in jail for saying the type of things we say re. our political environment. My friends there have to speak in whispers in public while people in SF have no problem raging about our politicians. And saying we should "allow people to say disparaging things about gay people if we want them to be able to say novel things about physics". At its least a really poor choice of words there. The choice of words makes it sound like it's okay to stand aside while they spout bigotry. Perhaps he meant it's okay to say it, but we should argue against it - but unfortunately for him that point was not made because the intention of the article was to support free speech. Bad example.
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago> I've been to China and you can get thrown in jail for saying the type of things we say re. our political environment. It's jail vs sacking; different aspects of the same reaction.
- mephitix 9y agoHuh? In SF I can walk down the street or go into a restaurant and hear people saying how bad Trump is. In China if someone hears you, they will report you and you will be taken in. How in the world is this the same reaction?
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y agoTry explaining to your colleagues at work that the distribution of certain traits is slightly different in different genders and see what happens. In at least one company this didn't go well. The reaction is the same because those in power punish instead of explaining, only the aspect is different. Obviously I much prefer the SF version as at least I'm not in jail and can look for work somewhere else, but the feeling of lost freedom is in there, in many people.
- Veelox 9y ago
- volgo 9y agoA lot of people think you have to watch what you say in China, and they almost always are people who have never been there. There are very specific political things you can't do, but otherwise literally not one gives a shit about you. You can say what you want, and unless you specifically go organize a large group of people and screaming in public something politically sensitive, no one cares. Ideally in a society we don't want those people anyways.
- acjohnson55 9y agoI found that to be the case in Cuba. It actually felt more liberating than a typical American city, in that I could walk down the street alone drinking a beer at night in the middle of the city without fear. However, I also know that, like most totalitarian regimes, they'll allow a good bit of flex until they decide not to anymore, and then the crackdown is swift.
- tomaskafka 9y agoYou should try central Europe - you can walk the city with beer in hand AND not have a dictator that can imprison you for life for banality.
- jetcata 9y agoAs a tourist that's how you felt, but did you speak to the people who live there? What you'll find is a people scared to criticize their dictatorship government, which is incredibly rich and lives a life of luxury whilst their citizens are very poor.
- acjohnson55 9y agoYep, I did. In fact, our government-provided tour guide was pretty open about that. I'm sure he felt that he could be open with us because the government largely doesn't care that much about micromanaging the impressions tourists get. So monitoring what he tells us simply is not a high priority. They care about long-term domestic control. My point was just that for any short amount of time in most totalitarian states, you're unlikely to encounter the arbitrary crackdowns that have a chilling effect on free expression for people who live their permanently.
- jbigelow76 9y agoI thought it was ironic that earlier today I read an article about China's (by way of private companies) "Social Ranking" score from Wired[1], part of it entails journalist Liu Hu being part of the "Supreme People's Court black list" and the fallout that it entailed. It's convenient to be a tourist sometimes. 1. https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/ https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/
- RonanTheGrey 9y agoHoly sh that is incredibly disturbing.
- thowar2 9y agoThe range of controversial subjects in China is incredibly narrow, but the punishments worse. For the most part, no one in your every day life gives a shit what you say or do. For Americans and nationals of other privileged countries there is even more tolerance for the controversial subjects.
- stevenwoo 9y agoThe challenge Sam Altman would not dare - try to go to Tiananmen Square on June 4th and talk about what happened in 1989.