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'More recently, I’ve seen credible people working on ideas like pharmaceuticals for intelligence augmentation, genetic engineering, and radical life extension l

'More recently, I’ve seen credible people working on ideas like pharmaceuticals for intelligence augmentation, genetic engineering, and radical life extension leave San Francisco because they found the reaction to their work to be so toxic. “If people live a lot longer it will be disastrous for the environment, so people working on this must be really unethical” was a memorable quote I heard this year.' That's toxic? First, sounds very straw-man. Second, okay, someone said they think something's unethical. Maybe it is? Maybe they have a point they didn't articulate well? Maybe they're straight-up wrong! If you're arguing for free speech, then you're arguing in favor of people being vocally critical of ideas you hold dear. Hiding under the pillow fort of "California is so intolerant" makes it seem like what you're actually complaining about is people disagreeing with you.

prepend 9y ago
I’ve had similar experiences. And yeah, being told your work is unethical over something so arbitrary is depressing. It’s only one anecdote as part of an article so I don’t understand your complaint. I suppose a thorough study of attitudes would be better.
untog 9y ago
Yeah, I think this gets to my core objection to the essay. It presents as being in favour of free speech, yet also implicitly says that anyone questioning progress (in more or less any form) is dangerous. The idea that you should be able to say or do whatever you want and also be shielded from criticism of those ideas is silly. Especially when you're some of the most rich and powerful people in the 21st century. No-one is stopping you from doing anything, they're just questioning you about it. If you can't (or don't want to) answer those questions then maybe you should consider why that is.
- cirgue 9y ago
  Saying "you are unethical for doing this research" is very different from saying "I think there are serious problems with extending human life". One is a legitimate criticism and is vital to public debate. The other is name calling.
  - untog 9y ago
    Sure. But does it really matter? Are we that sensitive? I mean, the essay makes the argument that allowing disparagement of gay people might be a necessary in order to allow the investigation of novel physics (which, wtf) - why not also make the argument that being called unethical might be a necessary cost to allow the investigation of life extension? Is the idea worth perusing? Then you can probably stand to be called a name or two. Especially when you're also proposing allowing whole groups of people to be disparaged in the name of progress.
    - lutorm 9y ago
      It does matter if you want to actually talk about it. If you're just interested in making yourself feel better by calling other people names, then maybe not. But it's very basic human psychology to be less inclined to hear people out and take their concerns seriously if they call you names, and it certainly doesn't signal to me that it's worth my time explaining my position to you.
    - cirgue 9y ago
      > Then you can probably stand to be called a name or two. Especially when you're also proposing allowing whole groups of people to be disparaged in the name of progress. I don't really know what to make of your interpretation of Altman's statement. He was making the point that if a physicist has homophobic views, we should not dismiss their contributions to physics for that reason alone. Put another way, we should be tolerant of people, but not necessarily of their views. > Sure. But does it really matter? Are we that sensitive? Sensitivity isn't the issue: it's that calling someone names for reasons that are entirely speculative (and longer lifespan == ecological catastrophe is definitely that) is the domain of at least two other groups: grade-school children and the alt-right.
      - chasing 9y ago
        Remember that Altman is most likely paraphrasing his interpretation of a hypothetical person or class of people responding to the idea. So parsing Altman's quote too deeply might not be useful. It's entirely possible no one ever actually said those words. People tend to "tune" the details of a story to fit their argument. Especially when they feel aggrieved. Also, the comment assumes a certain supremacy of science (or physics) over social concerns which everyone might not agree with. Physics is wonderful. But as far as improving people's lives, decrying and eliminating homophobia might also be a very important thing to do. So to say "I'm willing to sacrifice the well-being of gay people so physics can progress..." Not everyone may agree that the exchange is worth it. And that's valid.
- nateabele 9y ago
  But look at the form of the statement quoted. To paraphrase, 'I disagree with this idea, therefore any proponent of it is a bad person'. The underlying assumption (or one of many) is that all perspectives have moral judgements attached, and the offended party is the sole arbiter of that judgement. In other words, it's one thing to question progress, it's another thing to say 'I disagree with this form of progress, therefore the person working towards it is evil'. Judge action all you want, but assume good intent absent concrete evidence to the contrary.
  - spenczar5 9y ago
    I don't read it that way. I read it as: - Extending human lifespan harms the environment. - Harming the environment is ethically wrong. (this is elided) - Therefore, Extending human lifespans is ethically wrong. This is muddy thinking and takes a great leap when it ignores the ethical _benefits_ of extending human lifespans, but I don't think it is indefensible.
    - lutorm 9y ago
      No, the issue is not that extending human lifespans is ethically wrong (it may or may not be, but that's an opinion about research.) It's claiming that people working on such research are unethical people. A very basic part about good-faith discussions is to discuss the topic at hand and not the people having the discussion.
      - rtpg 9y ago
        Many universities ban weapons research on ethical grounds. Researchers are responsible for what they work on just like implementers are (though the nuances are different).
      - spenczar5 9y ago
        Huh, I don't see the difference really here. If extending human lifespans is wrong (I think you and I agree that's not the point we want to argue), then doesn't that mean working to extend human lifespans is ethically wrong? I think the conclusion of your line of argument is that you can never say a particular person is unethical. I don't think I like that consequence - it absolves anyone of guilt for anything. In an extreme case, how about this: "Stealing thing is wrong. Therefore, thieves are unethical people." Seems clearly reasonable to me.
- drdrey 9y ago
  What if voicing a controversial opinion gets you fired?
  - chasing 9y ago
    You're going to have to be more specific. What kind of controversial opinion are you worried will get you fired?
    - stale2002 9y ago
      Sure. How about voicing the controversial opinion that private citizens should have a right to free speech without being fired (as in, believing that free speech should apply to more than just the government). IE, free speech, applied to private companies, as the controversial opinion that a person is getting fired for.
      - chasing 9y ago
        A company has to continue to employ you no matter what dumb things you say at work? (Also, no place worth working for will fire you for saying “private citizens should have the right to free speech without being fired.” What is the controversial opinion you’re actually worried about expressing at work? That Windows Mobile is making a huge comeback? That pina colada Oreos are tasty?)
        stale2002 9y ago
        > What is the controversial opinion you’re actually worried about expressing at work? The controversial opinion that free speech should apply to workplaces. Yes lots of people oppose free speech. Some of those people might be willing to fire people over it.
        chasing 9y ago
        I don't believe you that normal people would fire an employee for saying "free speech should apply to workplaces." I believe there's some other idea that you're talking about expressing and then defending by saying "free speech should apply to workplaces." What is that idea?
marchenko 9y ago
I think the title of the essay actually begs the question a bit. The Galileo quote ("Eppur si muove") refers to an incident where the objective facts were on the side of the persecuted speaker. Here the author discusses a clash of opinion: depending on the criteria used to assess its outcomes, or how the technology is developed or implemented, radical life extension work could indeed turn out to be unethical - we don't have access to the relevant priors of the discussants. It's possible that utterances like this give people an impression of unexamined or unearned certainty to which they react negatively.

prepend 9y ago

I’ve had similar experiences. And yeah, being told your work is unethical over something so arbitrary is depressing. It’s only one anecdote as part of an article so I don’t understand your complaint. I suppose a thorough study of attitudes would be better.

untog 9y ago

Yeah, I think this gets to my core objection to the essay. It presents as being in favour of free speech, yet also implicitly says that anyone questioning progress (in more or less any form) is dangerous. The idea that you should be able to say or do whatever you want and also be shielded from criticism of those ideas is silly. Especially when you're some of the most rich and powerful people in the 21st century. No-one is stopping you from doing anything, they're just questioning you about it. If you can't (or don't want to) answer those questions then maybe you should consider why that is.

cirgue 9y ago
Saying "you are unethical for doing this research" is very different from saying "I think there are serious problems with extending human life". One is a legitimate criticism and is vital to public debate. The other is name calling.
- untog 9y ago
  Sure. But does it really matter? Are we that sensitive? I mean, the essay makes the argument that allowing disparagement of gay people might be a necessary in order to allow the investigation of novel physics (which, wtf) - why not also make the argument that being called unethical might be a necessary cost to allow the investigation of life extension? Is the idea worth perusing? Then you can probably stand to be called a name or two. Especially when you're also proposing allowing whole groups of people to be disparaged in the name of progress.
  - lutorm 9y ago
    It does matter if you want to actually talk about it. If you're just interested in making yourself feel better by calling other people names, then maybe not. But it's very basic human psychology to be less inclined to hear people out and take their concerns seriously if they call you names, and it certainly doesn't signal to me that it's worth my time explaining my position to you.
  - cirgue 9y ago
    > Then you can probably stand to be called a name or two. Especially when you're also proposing allowing whole groups of people to be disparaged in the name of progress. I don't really know what to make of your interpretation of Altman's statement. He was making the point that if a physicist has homophobic views, we should not dismiss their contributions to physics for that reason alone. Put another way, we should be tolerant of people, but not necessarily of their views. > Sure. But does it really matter? Are we that sensitive? Sensitivity isn't the issue: it's that calling someone names for reasons that are entirely speculative (and longer lifespan == ecological catastrophe is definitely that) is the domain of at least two other groups: grade-school children and the alt-right.
    - chasing 9y ago
      Remember that Altman is most likely paraphrasing his interpretation of a hypothetical person or class of people responding to the idea. So parsing Altman's quote too deeply might not be useful. It's entirely possible no one ever actually said those words. People tend to "tune" the details of a story to fit their argument. Especially when they feel aggrieved. Also, the comment assumes a certain supremacy of science (or physics) over social concerns which everyone might not agree with. Physics is wonderful. But as far as improving people's lives, decrying and eliminating homophobia might also be a very important thing to do. So to say "I'm willing to sacrifice the well-being of gay people so physics can progress..." Not everyone may agree that the exchange is worth it. And that's valid.
nateabele 9y ago
But look at the form of the statement quoted. To paraphrase, 'I disagree with this idea, therefore any proponent of it is a bad person'. The underlying assumption (or one of many) is that all perspectives have moral judgements attached, and the offended party is the sole arbiter of that judgement. In other words, it's one thing to question progress, it's another thing to say 'I disagree with this form of progress, therefore the person working towards it is evil'. Judge action all you want, but assume good intent absent concrete evidence to the contrary.
- spenczar5 9y ago
  I don't read it that way. I read it as: - Extending human lifespan harms the environment. - Harming the environment is ethically wrong. (this is elided) - Therefore, Extending human lifespans is ethically wrong. This is muddy thinking and takes a great leap when it ignores the ethical _benefits_ of extending human lifespans, but I don't think it is indefensible.
  - lutorm 9y ago
    No, the issue is not that extending human lifespans is ethically wrong (it may or may not be, but that's an opinion about research.) It's claiming that people working on such research are unethical people. A very basic part about good-faith discussions is to discuss the topic at hand and not the people having the discussion.
    - rtpg 9y ago
      Many universities ban weapons research on ethical grounds. Researchers are responsible for what they work on just like implementers are (though the nuances are different).
    - spenczar5 9y ago
      Huh, I don't see the difference really here. If extending human lifespans is wrong (I think you and I agree that's not the point we want to argue), then doesn't that mean working to extend human lifespans is ethically wrong? I think the conclusion of your line of argument is that you can never say a particular person is unethical. I don't think I like that consequence - it absolves anyone of guilt for anything. In an extreme case, how about this: "Stealing thing is wrong. Therefore, thieves are unethical people." Seems clearly reasonable to me.
drdrey 9y ago
What if voicing a controversial opinion gets you fired?
- chasing 9y ago
  You're going to have to be more specific. What kind of controversial opinion are you worried will get you fired?
  - stale2002 9y ago
    Sure. How about voicing the controversial opinion that private citizens should have a right to free speech without being fired (as in, believing that free speech should apply to more than just the government). IE, free speech, applied to private companies, as the controversial opinion that a person is getting fired for.
    - chasing 9y ago
      A company has to continue to employ you no matter what dumb things you say at work? (Also, no place worth working for will fire you for saying “private citizens should have the right to free speech without being fired.” What is the controversial opinion you’re actually worried about expressing at work? That Windows Mobile is making a huge comeback? That pina colada Oreos are tasty?)
      - stale2002 9y ago
        > What is the controversial opinion you’re actually worried about expressing at work? The controversial opinion that free speech should apply to workplaces. Yes lots of people oppose free speech. Some of those people might be willing to fire people over it.
        chasing 9y ago
        I don't believe you that normal people would fire an employee for saying "free speech should apply to workplaces." I believe there's some other idea that you're talking about expressing and then defending by saying "free speech should apply to workplaces." What is that idea?

marchenko 9y ago

I think the title of the essay actually begs the question a bit. The Galileo quote ("Eppur si muove") refers to an incident where the objective facts were on the side of the persecuted speaker. Here the author discusses a clash of opinion: depending on the criteria used to assess its outcomes, or how the technology is developed or implemented, radical life extension work could indeed turn out to be unethical - we don't have access to the relevant priors of the discussants. It's possible that utterances like this give people an impression of unexamined or unearned certainty to which they react negatively.