6 ms·

Next time he's in China maybe he should think about donating some money to a local union and see how free the speech is there. I'm no fan of the Bay Area but co

by rb808 9y ago

Next time he's in China maybe he should think about donating some money to a local union and see how free the speech is there. I'm no fan of the Bay Area but comparing to China freedom of speech is a bit weird.

ch4s3 9y ago
That struck me as ridiculous. If you piss off the mayor of SF you don't get disappeared, but that very much does happen in China.
- pavlov 9y ago
  In China, you can even get disappeared in your own home. It’s called “residential surveillance at a designated location” — indefinite house arrest under police watch. It’s used routinely against both irrelevant dissidents and high-profile targets like artist Ai Weiwei and Nobel prize winner Liu Xiaobo. Maybe, in Altman’s Panglossian view, house arrest is just an opportunity to think deeply about inconvenient truths.
  - creaghpatr 9y ago
    I'm giving Sam the benefit of the doubt that he's just trying to make a point and didn't think that line through.
    - ch4s3 9y ago
      I'd refer you to my response below. If he didn't think it through, then it points to how thin his argument is and how weak his thinking is on this issue.
- colordrops 9y ago
  That's not what is being talked about here. The topic is about social ostracization based on opinions you hold, rather than the ability to challenge authority over public broadcast mediums.
  - ch4s3 9y ago
    Then he's wrong about that too. There are plenty of heterodox ideas that would get you ostracized socially as well as imprisoned in Beijing, they just aren't the ideas that are heterodox in SF and vica versa, so he's ignoring them. Also, the blurry line between state and society in China means that social heterodoxy is a challenge to authority. He's missing the point. Furthermore, what is he really ostracized from? He never makes that clear. His anecdote about " radical life extension" relies on literally the worst version of criticism of life extension, the kind you would get from the angriest and least informed type of person. It's a bad argument. Furthermore his argument about Newton undermines itself. Newton hid his work on alchemy and it was uncovered after his death, because he'd have literally been imprisoned for it. That wouldn't happen if Musk tried to turn lead into gold today. Again, the mention if Elon Musk is ridiculous, because plenty of people ridiculed SpaceX when he started it, but he push on anyway. Sure, occasionally good ideas get shouted down throughout history by small minded reactionaries, especially slightly transgressive ones, but that's just the hurdle you have to cross to execute on brilliant ideas sometimes. This whole thing seemed extremely thin skinned and petulant to me, and I definitely have diminished respect for Sam after reading it. And, if indeed he is correct and SF has entered a phase of reactionary response to new ideas, then that change hasn't happened in a vacuum.
    - colordrops 9y ago
      I lived in Beijing for 9 years and I never once felt threat for my ideas, those of which I spoke to pretty much anyone. And I'm definitely anti-authoritarian. You really are only gonna get busted if you hold up signs or organize protests. The topic of this post is not about public protests. Don't get me wrong. I don't agree with China's treatment of public protests, and think it's despicable. And I find that free speech in the US is one of the only things that we are right about when it comes to exceptionalism. It's maybe the last thing that is special about the US, and that's why I don't like attacks against it. Only a few weeks ago during "free speech week" at Berkeley and the South Carolina protests I had leftist friends and acquaintances advocate for limitations on speech, and violence towards those who use hate speech, despite the fact that the first amendment protects hate speech. It's ass backwards, and exactly what China's faux-leftist policies advocate. In any case, that is not the topic of this post, which is topics of daily conversation.
InTheArena 9y ago
Or conversely, maybe we should listen to people who are pointing out that we arn't as free as we think we are, and people who we think are more constrained may not be. It's a good thesis to try and prove.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  It would be a funny assertion to say that you're less free to speak in SV where the worst you'll get is a tongue-lashing vs China where the worst you'll get is quite a lot worse. How would you even fix this freedom? Somehow constrain people to not speak their mind when they disagree with you? Constraining them through government would obviously make us less free so that's out. Constraining them through culture is no different than what's already happening, it just makes people like Sam the winner instead of people who disagree with him. So again no freedom difference.
  - alehul 9y ago
    The beauty of the U.S. is in its freedom, and as such, individuals cannot be constrained. That's why we have an appeal from Sam who is suggesting that people willingly open their minds to debating ideas and not demonizing the people espousing them. This is a freedom that could be fixed only through the people's choice to acknowledge it and fix it.
  - Cyberdog 9y ago
    "The worst you'll get is a tongue-lashing?" Not even close. It is quite ordinary for SV employees to be fired or "resign" after being caught participating in wrongthink. Eich is the most famous example, but Apple's former chief of diversity is a more recent one. No, this is not quite as severe as being arrested and imprisoned for thinking the wrong things. But career-wise, at least, it can be almost as disastrous.
    - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
      Okay but how do you solve that? You take away the right of companies to fire people for speech? I see no way to increase freedom from the status quo here.
tclancy 9y ago
Yes, the argument really lost me by mentioning feeling more comfortable in Beijing than SF. I am sure it's not intended that way, but one of the things it reminded me of is the bimonthly "Why are all these homeless people in front of my startup when I pay taxes?" posts from Valley success stories. 100 floors up in Beijing isn't exactly my idea of grounded in reality.
- colordrops 9y ago
  I believe he is mostly talking about day to day could conversations among friends, acquaintances, and coworkers. I lived in Beijing for 9 years and I can tell you those types of conversations are absolutely more free in China. It's common to tell someone they are fat or ask them how much money they make without people taking offense. You can discuss various social topics and take a less popular opinion without being ostracized.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Are they really more free, or do they just seem more free because the taboos don't quite match up, and you see them violating yours without thinking about the fact that they have their own which they're avoiding? You say it's common to talk about weight or salary without people taking offense. Fair. On the other hand, in the US it's common to talk about the misdeeds of the President, express disagreement with the legislature, or question the government's policies. These are day to day conversations too. I don't think I've ever heard anything like that in China.
    - colordrops 9y ago
      With older crowds you need to be familiar before talking politics. Younger people talk pretty freely about politics in social settings. To be fair that's not much different from the US.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        That's definitely not been my experience. I haven't heard anyone talk politics at all, with me or with each other, aside from occasional bits about American politics. And that covers a wide range of ages and social familiarity.
leroy_masochist 9y ago
Is Sam saying that there's more free speech available to Chinese citizens within China than there is to American citizens within the US, in general? Or, is he saying that, within the expat-heavy Beijing startup community (a constituency the PRC government really doesn't want to alienate), people are freer to discuss certain controversial ideas about the future of technology than they are in San Francisco? I think it's pretty obviously the latter....
colordrops 9y ago
He's talking about "discussing controversial ideas" with people around you which is a very different think than challenging authority through public broadcast channels. This partisan stance that China is all bad and US is all good is ridiculous.
dan_mctree 9y ago
The SF type of free speech is just of a very different kind. In China the wrong political ideas can cause you trouble with the government and potentially in jail. In SF the wrong ideas or words can lead to rejection from your social circle and loss of your career. To a lot of people the latter is just as scary, if not scarier than facing a hostile government. A year in jail doesn't sound as bad to some as becoming a social pariah. And the government is at least sort of predictable, and is unlikely to make you disappear without any warnings. Social circles and careers can flip at a moments notice based on criteria no one is exactly sure of. A less than favorable opinion on any racial or sexual minority group or gender? A too favorable opinion on something sexual? Some comment regarding a woman's appearance? Support for a certain political party? Not thinking some individual woman/minority is amazing? Desiring the (il)legality of guns? Desiring the (il)legality of abortion? Other opinions on healthcare? Expressing a preference to (fe)males for some occupation? Acting on the belief it is okay to flirt in a workplace environment? Believing 'political correctness' is bad? Thinking human engineering is a good thing? Being for/opposed to the trans movement? Having some religion? Not having a religion? You never know which one of these is capable of killing off your career/social group. In your average environment today, you really just can't tell which of them will set off the bomb. So you're silent on all.
- ironjunkie 9y ago
  very well articulated response and I recognize myself in it 100%.
- novasaint 9y ago
  This resonates what I am thinking as well. I used to put my point of view on things on social media and such but I kind of had to stop doing that because of the latter reason.

by rb808 9y ago

ch4s3 9y ago

That struck me as ridiculous. If you piss off the mayor of SF you don't get disappeared, but that very much does happen in China.

pavlov 9y ago
In China, you can even get disappeared in your own home. It’s called “residential surveillance at a designated location” — indefinite house arrest under police watch. It’s used routinely against both irrelevant dissidents and high-profile targets like artist Ai Weiwei and Nobel prize winner Liu Xiaobo. Maybe, in Altman’s Panglossian view, house arrest is just an opportunity to think deeply about inconvenient truths.
- creaghpatr 9y ago
  I'm giving Sam the benefit of the doubt that he's just trying to make a point and didn't think that line through.
  - ch4s3 9y ago
    I'd refer you to my response below. If he didn't think it through, then it points to how thin his argument is and how weak his thinking is on this issue.
colordrops 9y ago
That's not what is being talked about here. The topic is about social ostracization based on opinions you hold, rather than the ability to challenge authority over public broadcast mediums.
- ch4s3 9y ago
  Then he's wrong about that too. There are plenty of heterodox ideas that would get you ostracized socially as well as imprisoned in Beijing, they just aren't the ideas that are heterodox in SF and vica versa, so he's ignoring them. Also, the blurry line between state and society in China means that social heterodoxy is a challenge to authority. He's missing the point. Furthermore, what is he really ostracized from? He never makes that clear. His anecdote about " radical life extension" relies on literally the worst version of criticism of life extension, the kind you would get from the angriest and least informed type of person. It's a bad argument. Furthermore his argument about Newton undermines itself. Newton hid his work on alchemy and it was uncovered after his death, because he'd have literally been imprisoned for it. That wouldn't happen if Musk tried to turn lead into gold today. Again, the mention if Elon Musk is ridiculous, because plenty of people ridiculed SpaceX when he started it, but he push on anyway. Sure, occasionally good ideas get shouted down throughout history by small minded reactionaries, especially slightly transgressive ones, but that's just the hurdle you have to cross to execute on brilliant ideas sometimes. This whole thing seemed extremely thin skinned and petulant to me, and I definitely have diminished respect for Sam after reading it. And, if indeed he is correct and SF has entered a phase of reactionary response to new ideas, then that change hasn't happened in a vacuum.
  - colordrops 9y ago
    I lived in Beijing for 9 years and I never once felt threat for my ideas, those of which I spoke to pretty much anyone. And I'm definitely anti-authoritarian. You really are only gonna get busted if you hold up signs or organize protests. The topic of this post is not about public protests. Don't get me wrong. I don't agree with China's treatment of public protests, and think it's despicable. And I find that free speech in the US is one of the only things that we are right about when it comes to exceptionalism. It's maybe the last thing that is special about the US, and that's why I don't like attacks against it. Only a few weeks ago during "free speech week" at Berkeley and the South Carolina protests I had leftist friends and acquaintances advocate for limitations on speech, and violence towards those who use hate speech, despite the fact that the first amendment protects hate speech. It's ass backwards, and exactly what China's faux-leftist policies advocate. In any case, that is not the topic of this post, which is topics of daily conversation.

InTheArena 9y ago

Or conversely, maybe we should listen to people who are pointing out that we arn't as free as we think we are, and people who we think are more constrained may not be. It's a good thesis to try and prove.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
It would be a funny assertion to say that you're less free to speak in SV where the worst you'll get is a tongue-lashing vs China where the worst you'll get is quite a lot worse. How would you even fix this freedom? Somehow constrain people to not speak their mind when they disagree with you? Constraining them through government would obviously make us less free so that's out. Constraining them through culture is no different than what's already happening, it just makes people like Sam the winner instead of people who disagree with him. So again no freedom difference.
- alehul 9y ago
  The beauty of the U.S. is in its freedom, and as such, individuals cannot be constrained. That's why we have an appeal from Sam who is suggesting that people willingly open their minds to debating ideas and not demonizing the people espousing them. This is a freedom that could be fixed only through the people's choice to acknowledge it and fix it.
- Cyberdog 9y ago
  "The worst you'll get is a tongue-lashing?" Not even close. It is quite ordinary for SV employees to be fired or "resign" after being caught participating in wrongthink. Eich is the most famous example, but Apple's former chief of diversity is a more recent one. No, this is not quite as severe as being arrested and imprisoned for thinking the wrong things. But career-wise, at least, it can be almost as disastrous.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
    Okay but how do you solve that? You take away the right of companies to fire people for speech? I see no way to increase freedom from the status quo here.

tclancy 9y ago

Yes, the argument really lost me by mentioning feeling more comfortable in Beijing than SF. I am sure it's not intended that way, but one of the things it reminded me of is the bimonthly "Why are all these homeless people in front of my startup when I pay taxes?" posts from Valley success stories. 100 floors up in Beijing isn't exactly my idea of grounded in reality.

colordrops 9y ago
I believe he is mostly talking about day to day could conversations among friends, acquaintances, and coworkers. I lived in Beijing for 9 years and I can tell you those types of conversations are absolutely more free in China. It's common to tell someone they are fat or ask them how much money they make without people taking offense. You can discuss various social topics and take a less popular opinion without being ostracized.
- mikeash 9y ago
  Are they really more free, or do they just seem more free because the taboos don't quite match up, and you see them violating yours without thinking about the fact that they have their own which they're avoiding? You say it's common to talk about weight or salary without people taking offense. Fair. On the other hand, in the US it's common to talk about the misdeeds of the President, express disagreement with the legislature, or question the government's policies. These are day to day conversations too. I don't think I've ever heard anything like that in China.
  - colordrops 9y ago
    With older crowds you need to be familiar before talking politics. Younger people talk pretty freely about politics in social settings. To be fair that's not much different from the US.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      That's definitely not been my experience. I haven't heard anyone talk politics at all, with me or with each other, aside from occasional bits about American politics. And that covers a wide range of ages and social familiarity.

leroy_masochist 9y ago

Is Sam saying that there's more free speech available to Chinese citizens within China than there is to American citizens within the US, in general? Or, is he saying that, within the expat-heavy Beijing startup community (a constituency the PRC government really doesn't want to alienate), people are freer to discuss certain controversial ideas about the future of technology than they are in San Francisco? I think it's pretty obviously the latter....

colordrops 9y ago

He's talking about "discussing controversial ideas" with people around you which is a very different think than challenging authority through public broadcast channels. This partisan stance that China is all bad and US is all good is ridiculous.

dan_mctree 9y ago

The SF type of free speech is just of a very different kind. In China the wrong political ideas can cause you trouble with the government and potentially in jail. In SF the wrong ideas or words can lead to rejection from your social circle and loss of your career. To a lot of people the latter is just as scary, if not scarier than facing a hostile government. A year in jail doesn't sound as bad to some as becoming a social pariah. And the government is at least sort of predictable, and is unlikely to make you disappear without any warnings. Social circles and careers can flip at a moments notice based on criteria no one is exactly sure of. A less than favorable opinion on any racial or sexual minority group or gender? A too favorable opinion on something sexual? Some comment regarding a woman's appearance? Support for a certain political party? Not thinking some individual woman/minority is amazing? Desiring the (il)legality of guns? Desiring the (il)legality of abortion? Other opinions on healthcare? Expressing a preference to (fe)males for some occupation? Acting on the belief it is okay to flirt in a workplace environment? Believing 'political correctness' is bad? Thinking human engineering is a good thing? Being for/opposed to the trans movement? Having some religion? Not having a religion? You never know which one of these is capable of killing off your career/social group. In your average environment today, you really just can't tell which of them will set off the bomb. So you're silent on all.

ironjunkie 9y ago
very well articulated response and I recognize myself in it 100%.
novasaint 9y ago
This resonates what I am thinking as well. I used to put my point of view on things on social media and such but I kind of had to stop doing that because of the latter reason.