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I just don't get it. How can you make a tool for the pro market with no thoughts about price/performance or upgradeability? Apple seems to think that deviating

I just don't get it. How can you make a tool for the pro market with no thoughts about price/performance or upgradeability? Apple seems to think that deviating from their consumer oriented design philosophy is anathema, even when dealing with pros.

ericcholis 9y ago
This is a midway solution, there are plans for the Mac Pro line: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/04/apple-updates-mac-pro-and-more/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/04/apple-updates-mac-pro-a...
- jkestner 9y ago
  They didn't have the time to put RAM slots in a "midway" solution? Though, the image of the motherboard halfway down Apple's product page shows four slots. Might just need the tools to pry open the back.
  - awinder 9y ago
    Did this change for the iMac pro, ram has at least been user-serviceable on the latest iMacs https://9to5mac.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/ram-upgrade-complete-imac-2017-5k.jpg?quality=82&strip=all&w=1600&h=900 https://9to5mac.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/ram-upgrade-comp...
    - lumisota 9y ago
      iMac Pro RAM is not user-serviceable: https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/05/imac-pro-ram-and-space-gray-accessories/ https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/05/imac-pro-ram-and-space-gray-a...
    - wlesieutre 9y ago
      That's correct: https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/05/imac-pro-ram-and-space-gray-accessories/ https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/05/imac-pro-ram-and-space-gray-a... > Additionally, Apple has confirmed to us that the RAM in the iMac Pro will not be user-replaceable. This shouldn’t come as too big of a surprise given Apple’s other recent products, but nevertheless it means users are stuck with however much RAM they purchase from Apple. Currently, the 27-inch iMac features user-upgradeable RAM, while the 21.5-inch model does not.
      - awinder 9y ago
        ugh Apple is insufferable right now...
      - wlesieutre 9y ago
        Past the edit window, but apparently the RAM is in slots rather than soldered to the motherboard, meaning it can be so if you take the computer apart. So instead of the hatch on the back you need to have it done at service center (or be very confident in your $5000 Mac disassembly/reassembly skills and not mind voiding the warranty). Not clear if you can supply your own RAM for them to install or if you pay Apple prices on it. ECC RAM isn't cheap either way, but I assume buying it from Apple would be even pricier. Maybe the independent authorized repair centers will take user supplied parts. https://twitter.com/reneritchie/status/941324098583511040?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.macrumors.com%2F https://twitter.com/reneritchie/status/941324098583511040?re...
anon1253 9y ago
Or repairability. And, before anyone mentions that it's impossible to fix SMD, it's totally doable. Just as an example, https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup click any of the board level repair videos. (and I mean, this is HackerNews, the ability to tinker with stuff or keep a historical/cultural legacy of these things for decades is pretty ingrained in the general "computer crowd"). I just find this user hostile to be honest, they would probably lose 0 customers over publishing board schematics and making the back pop off. Now in a few years, all you have is a pile of steaming metal, with no hope of ever repairing it (for any reasonable price) after Apple decides they're done with it. It's planned obsolescence for a market that should know better: pro's. I would think twice about rolling this out in an enterprise setting or any critical piece of infrastructure. It's a toy, an expensive one at that. EDIT: typo
- roryisok 9y ago
  *lose
- kondro 9y ago
  Pay the $169 and get 3 years of AppleCare. Easy.
  - anon1253 9y ago
    AppleCare covers almost nothing. Any cosmetic thing they can find "out of warranty". And 3 years is not a lot for a machine that can cost up to $10k. Besides, they erase your data and it often takes weeks to fix (or even 1,5 months in case of my Macbook). They require you to give up your password (a nuisance to say the least if it doesn't boot at all to change it). And besides, there are a lot of places on earth where there is no certified Apple Dealer without a substantial drive or even flight. It just bugs me that a consumer electronic vendors have aggressively started implementing a model where it's no longer /your/ machine. You rent it, and with the flick of a switch they can brick it or decide to no longer support it. This icks me particularly because it's labeled a "Pro" machine.
    - 9y ago
sampl 9y ago
> their consumer oriented design philosophy That design does matter when the pros are creative professionals.
- snuxoll 9y ago
  It’s still technically serviceable, but you can’t just pop off the rear door line you can in the 27” iMac - you need to disassemble the machine instead.
Retric 9y ago
They have a pro line of tablets. I am not going to buy one, but I suspect many people will love them. Really PRO is just a marketing term. Though, 5k screen, 10Gbit Ethernet, 600$ graphics card, 1TB NVMe SSDs are also ~$600 etc that's far from a normal office desktop.
- brentm 9y ago
  > Really PRO is just a marketing term This seems to be what everyone forgets when airing their grievances towards Apple's "Pro" line. It's unfortunate but the number of people that may dislike this because of a lack of upgradability, etc is probably smaller than the number of people that just want a cool looking "pro" computer and have money to burn.
  - nullpage 9y ago
    My rule of thumb lately has been that if something is marketed as 'Pro', it is usually intended for average joe who wants to feel pro, not to meet the requirements of people that are actually professionals.
    - freehunter 9y ago
      My favorite thing about coming into these threads is constantly being told that I'm "not actually a professional" because I'm able to use a Macbook Pro for my job.
      - IMTDb 9y ago
        "Being able to use a tool" does not mean that it's the best choice for you. People here are saying that these new "Pro" computers are actually really bad choices for Professional, mainly because of the lack of modularity and high price. If you feel offended by those comment, that's on you, no one is actually judging you.
        Retric 9y ago
baldfat 9y ago
Who in Professional Video Editing world should trust Apple in regards to Hardware anymore? More and more video production is moving back to Windows and for good reason, hardware and Apple's handling of Final Cut Pro X years ago still scares everyone. In graphic design I see this as a good solution for those shops, but video really has been leaving Apple. After their meeting to set the record straight in April 2017 about Professional Hardware and Apple support for the industry with Phil Schiller, Craig Federighi they give people this? This is not what a workstation should be. It isn't upgradable GPU, and it is using ports again like the Pro of 4 years ago.
- drakenot 9y ago
  This was very far along when that April meeting occurred. Many people speculated that this was going to be their answer to the Pro market, but they took the feedback, held that meeting and promised to release a new "modular" Mac Pro. So, this isn't what they are releasing in response to that feedback or what they were discussing in that meeting.
  - Shivetya 9y ago
    however with modular people are reading too much into it. Apple more likely meant modular for them, as in being able to adjust to changes in technology where the previous Mac Pro could not be changed. I doubt we will go back to the old tower style similar to PC versions
    - rbanffy 9y ago
      > the previous Mac Pro could not be changed. Apple could have changed it rather easily.
  - rbanffy 9y ago
    > but they took the feedback, held that meeting and promised to release a new "modular" Mac Pro. What would be really awesome (at least for video) would be offloaded rendering for Linux. Doesn't macOS offer something like that that's used for Xcode?
gaius 9y ago
Pro in Apple-speak just means "deluxe" now.
- wlesieutre 9y ago
  Agreed. As a hobby software developer and long-time Mac person, the low end 13" MBP is a really great computer for me. But I can see how even the top of the line versions are lacking for a lot of professional uses. It feels like a computer designed for trendy college students who want something faster than the mini-Macbook or made for web developers who don't use any external devices.
steve_adams_86 9y ago
It's just a fleeting term. It'll be Pro until it's not - then you need to buy a new one. Some pros are fine with that. Lots of them can write this stuff off, or request it from their employer. It's not much sweat off their back.
JustSomeNobody 9y ago
> "One of the things we’ve learned over the last few years is the depth of love and loyalty for macOS by our pro customers. And pro is a very large term. It encompasses many different people with different needs. > “What we find is, across all of our Mac products, we have a lot of pros on MacBook Pro; we have a lot of pros on iMac; and we have pros on Mac Pro. And so, a number of years ago, when we talked about where we need to move all our products forward for pros, we knew we needed to, along with MacBook Pro – and doing a new Mac pro – that there’s an iMac need there. > "This time, we decided to push it further. We asked our engineering teams, 'Can you make an iMac Pro that’s truly designed for pros?' It really, inside, is a different computer. > Phil Schiller[0] Clearly, they missed the mark. But honestly, I just think their definition of "pro" is watered down. [0]https://www.t3.com/features/phil-schiller-interview https://www.t3.com/features/phil-schiller-interview
rebeccaskinner 9y ago
There are a lot of different types of professionals, with different types of needs. I would suspect that for the vast majority of the target demographic here, upgradability just isn't that important. You can make ethical arguments about whether people ought to care, or whether the option should be available for the few people that do, but I just don't personally see a lot of people doing upgrades these days. For businesses, the cost of paying someone to upgrade a fleet of machines isn't there compared to just depreciating them over 3 years instead of 5 and replacing them more often. For a lot of independent professionals and home users it's just not worth the effort. The machine works until it doesn't and then they buy a new machine, and this one will get resold on craigslist or eBay, or get handed off as a substantial upgrade to some less technical family member.

ericcholis 9y ago

This is a midway solution, there are plans for the Mac Pro line: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/04/apple-updates-mac-pro-and-more/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/04/apple-updates-mac-pro-a...

jkestner 9y ago
They didn't have the time to put RAM slots in a "midway" solution? Though, the image of the motherboard halfway down Apple's product page shows four slots. Might just need the tools to pry open the back.
- awinder 9y ago
  Did this change for the iMac pro, ram has at least been user-serviceable on the latest iMacs https://9to5mac.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/ram-upgrade-complete-imac-2017-5k.jpg?quality=82&strip=all&w=1600&h=900 https://9to5mac.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/ram-upgrade-comp...
  - lumisota 9y ago
    iMac Pro RAM is not user-serviceable: https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/05/imac-pro-ram-and-space-gray-accessories/ https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/05/imac-pro-ram-and-space-gray-a...
  - wlesieutre 9y ago
    That's correct: https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/05/imac-pro-ram-and-space-gray-accessories/ https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/05/imac-pro-ram-and-space-gray-a... > Additionally, Apple has confirmed to us that the RAM in the iMac Pro will not be user-replaceable. This shouldn’t come as too big of a surprise given Apple’s other recent products, but nevertheless it means users are stuck with however much RAM they purchase from Apple. Currently, the 27-inch iMac features user-upgradeable RAM, while the 21.5-inch model does not.
    - awinder 9y ago
      ugh Apple is insufferable right now...
    - wlesieutre 9y ago
      Past the edit window, but apparently the RAM is in slots rather than soldered to the motherboard, meaning it can be so if you take the computer apart. So instead of the hatch on the back you need to have it done at service center (or be very confident in your $5000 Mac disassembly/reassembly skills and not mind voiding the warranty). Not clear if you can supply your own RAM for them to install or if you pay Apple prices on it. ECC RAM isn't cheap either way, but I assume buying it from Apple would be even pricier. Maybe the independent authorized repair centers will take user supplied parts. https://twitter.com/reneritchie/status/941324098583511040?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.macrumors.com%2F https://twitter.com/reneritchie/status/941324098583511040?re...

anon1253 9y ago

Or repairability. And, before anyone mentions that it's impossible to fix SMD, it's totally doable. Just as an example, https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup click any of the board level repair videos. (and I mean, this is HackerNews, the ability to tinker with stuff or keep a historical/cultural legacy of these things for decades is pretty ingrained in the general "computer crowd"). I just find this user hostile to be honest, they would probably lose 0 customers over publishing board schematics and making the back pop off. Now in a few years, all you have is a pile of steaming metal, with no hope of ever repairing it (for any reasonable price) after Apple decides they're done with it. It's planned obsolescence for a market that should know better: pro's. I would think twice about rolling this out in an enterprise setting or any critical piece of infrastructure. It's a toy, an expensive one at that. EDIT: typo

roryisok 9y ago
*lose
kondro 9y ago
Pay the $169 and get 3 years of AppleCare. Easy.
- anon1253 9y ago
  AppleCare covers almost nothing. Any cosmetic thing they can find "out of warranty". And 3 years is not a lot for a machine that can cost up to $10k. Besides, they erase your data and it often takes weeks to fix (or even 1,5 months in case of my Macbook). They require you to give up your password (a nuisance to say the least if it doesn't boot at all to change it). And besides, there are a lot of places on earth where there is no certified Apple Dealer without a substantial drive or even flight. It just bugs me that a consumer electronic vendors have aggressively started implementing a model where it's no longer /your/ machine. You rent it, and with the flick of a switch they can brick it or decide to no longer support it. This icks me particularly because it's labeled a "Pro" machine.
  - 9y ago

sampl 9y ago

> their consumer oriented design philosophy That design does matter when the pros are creative professionals.

snuxoll 9y ago
It’s still technically serviceable, but you can’t just pop off the rear door line you can in the 27” iMac - you need to disassemble the machine instead.

Retric 9y ago

They have a pro line of tablets. I am not going to buy one, but I suspect many people will love them. Really PRO is just a marketing term. Though, 5k screen, 10Gbit Ethernet, 600$ graphics card, 1TB NVMe SSDs are also ~$600 etc that's far from a normal office desktop.

brentm 9y ago
> Really PRO is just a marketing term This seems to be what everyone forgets when airing their grievances towards Apple's "Pro" line. It's unfortunate but the number of people that may dislike this because of a lack of upgradability, etc is probably smaller than the number of people that just want a cool looking "pro" computer and have money to burn.
- nullpage 9y ago
  My rule of thumb lately has been that if something is marketed as 'Pro', it is usually intended for average joe who wants to feel pro, not to meet the requirements of people that are actually professionals.
  - freehunter 9y ago
    My favorite thing about coming into these threads is constantly being told that I'm "not actually a professional" because I'm able to use a Macbook Pro for my job.
    - IMTDb 9y ago
      "Being able to use a tool" does not mean that it's the best choice for you. People here are saying that these new "Pro" computers are actually really bad choices for Professional, mainly because of the lack of modularity and high price. If you feel offended by those comment, that's on you, no one is actually judging you.
      - Retric 9y ago

baldfat 9y ago

Who in Professional Video Editing world should trust Apple in regards to Hardware anymore? More and more video production is moving back to Windows and for good reason, hardware and Apple's handling of Final Cut Pro X years ago still scares everyone. In graphic design I see this as a good solution for those shops, but video really has been leaving Apple. After their meeting to set the record straight in April 2017 about Professional Hardware and Apple support for the industry with Phil Schiller, Craig Federighi they give people this? This is not what a workstation should be. It isn't upgradable GPU, and it is using ports again like the Pro of 4 years ago.

drakenot 9y ago
This was very far along when that April meeting occurred. Many people speculated that this was going to be their answer to the Pro market, but they took the feedback, held that meeting and promised to release a new "modular" Mac Pro. So, this isn't what they are releasing in response to that feedback or what they were discussing in that meeting.
- Shivetya 9y ago
  however with modular people are reading too much into it. Apple more likely meant modular for them, as in being able to adjust to changes in technology where the previous Mac Pro could not be changed. I doubt we will go back to the old tower style similar to PC versions
  - rbanffy 9y ago
    > the previous Mac Pro could not be changed. Apple could have changed it rather easily.
- rbanffy 9y ago
  > but they took the feedback, held that meeting and promised to release a new "modular" Mac Pro. What would be really awesome (at least for video) would be offloaded rendering for Linux. Doesn't macOS offer something like that that's used for Xcode?

gaius 9y ago

Pro in Apple-speak just means "deluxe" now.

wlesieutre 9y ago
Agreed. As a hobby software developer and long-time Mac person, the low end 13" MBP is a really great computer for me. But I can see how even the top of the line versions are lacking for a lot of professional uses. It feels like a computer designed for trendy college students who want something faster than the mini-Macbook or made for web developers who don't use any external devices.

steve_adams_86 9y ago

It's just a fleeting term. It'll be Pro until it's not - then you need to buy a new one. Some pros are fine with that. Lots of them can write this stuff off, or request it from their employer. It's not much sweat off their back.

JustSomeNobody 9y ago

> "One of the things we’ve learned over the last few years is the depth of love and loyalty for macOS by our pro customers. And pro is a very large term. It encompasses many different people with different needs. > “What we find is, across all of our Mac products, we have a lot of pros on MacBook Pro; we have a lot of pros on iMac; and we have pros on Mac Pro. And so, a number of years ago, when we talked about where we need to move all our products forward for pros, we knew we needed to, along with MacBook Pro – and doing a new Mac pro – that there’s an iMac need there. > "This time, we decided to push it further. We asked our engineering teams, 'Can you make an iMac Pro that’s truly designed for pros?' It really, inside, is a different computer. > Phil Schiller[0] Clearly, they missed the mark. But honestly, I just think their definition of "pro" is watered down. [0]https://www.t3.com/features/phil-schiller-interview https://www.t3.com/features/phil-schiller-interview

rebeccaskinner 9y ago

There are a lot of different types of professionals, with different types of needs. I would suspect that for the vast majority of the target demographic here, upgradability just isn't that important. You can make ethical arguments about whether people ought to care, or whether the option should be available for the few people that do, but I just don't personally see a lot of people doing upgrades these days. For businesses, the cost of paying someone to upgrade a fleet of machines isn't there compared to just depreciating them over 3 years instead of 5 and replacing them more often. For a lot of independent professionals and home users it's just not worth the effort. The machine works until it doesn't and then they buy a new machine, and this one will get resold on craigslist or eBay, or get handed off as a substantial upgrade to some less technical family member.