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Maybe someone from the US can clarify this for me: are people upset about this as an indicator for the economic changes happening at the moment, or are they gen

Maybe someone from the US can clarify this for me: are people upset about this as an indicator for the economic changes happening at the moment, or are they genuinely concerned about the malls themselves? Never having left Europe myself, I could relate to the former, but not to the latter. What makes those malls so... relevant?

mseebach 9y ago
Malls have roughly the same function as "main streets" do in European towns - a relatively neutral public space - and I suspect the worry for their demise is largely the same as the worry for the demise of the main street in Europe.
- vanpeebles 9y ago
  The difference with malls is they are private businesses (and private property) so there are many restrictions to what the public could otherwise lawfully do on a Main Street (parades, festivals or demonstrations) - that is without express permission from the property owner.
  - distances 9y ago
    Plus, cities are thriving so main streets are not going anywhere -- the shops probably change to reflect the online shopping trends though. More cafés, definitely. Small town main streets are going away sure, but those towns are slowly emptying anyway.
  - Karliss 9y ago
    Organizing a parade or festival on main street would also require a permit from City.
csydas 9y ago
Mostly the former probably, but for many it's the latter as well. Malls historically were a central gathering point where many people burnt an entire day just shopping around, grabbing lunch at the food court, and just in general "hanging out". It's where the term Mallrat (and the move _Mallrats_) gets their naming from. In more recent years it's not as important and the day trips probably aren't there, but many still flock to malls around holidays for shopping and also during the summers in places where climate control is either too expensive or unavailable for people (same with theaters). Likewise, just having a large availability of stores and a place to put the kids (or just to meet in general) is still really important. Older folk also enjoy walking the mall as it's a large and safe area (also climate controlled). So basically, it still has some functions in society beyond being representative of general economic health.
- black_puppydog 9y ago
  To me, a lot of these functions seem like things that could easily be available to the individual (like AC) or should be provided to the general public, not just in malls (like being a "safe area"). But thank you, that does clarify it indeed. :)
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    > "safe area" This means "I can leave my teenagers there without worrying". Malls have private security. They can (and do) escort people out who are doing things that are bad for business. That includes all sorts of things that are legal (and should be legal!) but aren't appropriate in that context. Other things are illegal but impossible to eliminate from public life (and public parks). Many of those things are things you'd worry about your teenager being around. Like public drinking. Drug use (legal and not). Misdemeanor violence. Sexual harassment from random citizens (creepy middle aged people with panel vans). Public sexual conduct (sex in the bushes or in the bathroom stall). In other words, "safe area" is code for "free low-grade babysitting".
    - thejayray 9y ago
      There are some places, however, that are starting to put restrictions around minors in Malls at given times of day. The article mentions Simon Property Managment and I think that company now disallows anyone under 18 within their malls after 5pm, Friday through Sunday. This seems even stranger to me because of the foot traffic and disposable income of many minors; feels like a target demographic that the malls are shunning, then complaining about lower amounts of foot traffic.
  - wil421 9y ago
    I’m going to clear this up really quick because what OP said was extremely weird. People do not go to malls for AC and I live in the Deep South where it humid as hell. Safe Area is a weird choice of words. I guess it means parents can drop kids off at a place that has decent rent a cops. Generally keeping kids safe from themselves or weirdos I presume. My parents would’ve never said I like dropping my kids at the mall because it’s safe.
tomalpha 9y ago
That's an interesting question. How is a mall closing a problem provided that people are still buying things, albeit from a different company to the one they bought from before? If money continues to move around the system, surely this is something that looks like an economic indicator, but is really more of a cultural shift. (Separately there could well be economic problems with the decline of manufacturing etc.). Are shopping malls somehow deeply rooted in the American psyche? Watching US movies from the 80's and 90's might suggest that they are...
- black_puppydog 9y ago
  that last bit is what prompted my question. crydas' and mseebach's answers make a good point that for some reasons, malls in the US started taking on other roles than just the places of exchange for everyday goods. so from that perspective, if malls fail, those roles need to be filled by some other entity.
  - gbacon 9y ago
    It’s a sentimental attachment for Gen Xers.
- bunderbunder 9y ago
  Not just the psyche, the landscape, too. Many US towns are so sprawled out that the mall was the only thing they had for public space. When the local mall closes, a bunch of people who've spent much of the past decade sitting on their couches, and aren't necessarily happy about that situation, realize that this is probably how they're going to be spending the next decade, too.
randomerr 9y ago
Nostalgia and community. It was the one place 2-3 generation would gather at for events and shopping. As these break up and go away we see our childhood and teens go away with them. Finally its blight. These empty husks tend to take the surrounding communities down with them. It can take decades to get them either resold or at least demolished. They invite homeless people and gangs. There's an abandoned mall in Cleveland, Oh that usually has about 4 bodies found in it a year. But its stuck in court because the city doesn't want to take on cost of back taxes.
- amorphid 9y ago
  That sounds right. My family and I used to go to the mall every Monday night to grab food at hang out. I'd always hit up the book stores, game stores, and electronics stores.
lawn 9y ago
When I visited Malaysia earlier this year I asked on of the residents there what's the deal with malls there. She said it was the place all the kids went to when their parents kicked them out (don't watch tv all day!) because they had aircondition. There was a social component as well.
- reustle 9y ago
  I think this is the case around a lot of SE asia. Bangkok has plenty of massive shopping malls, and they're very often busy. It's a great place to hang out when it's 34 degrees out at 80% humidity :)
  - wyclif 9y ago
    Definitely a SE Asia thing. Malls in Asia are closer to amusement parks with shopping than straight retail with a cineplex attached. In the Philippines the SM mall chain, run by the Sy family from China, is still on the upswing with no end in sight. Always busy on nights and weekends, and filled with kids hanging out because it's so damned hot and humid outside all the time (and the average age in the Philippines is 23). Another factor in SE Asia is that most people (esp. young people) do not make purchases with credit cards like they do in the US and which makes Amazon's dominance assured and hastens the decline of malls. Mobile is huge, and mobile payments and cash are still king. Lazada is big in the Philippines because they accept mobile payments, e-wallet funds, and COD.
jasode 9y ago
>are people upset In general, people in America really aren't upset about the trend of dying malls. They just choose to shop elsewhere such as the newer open-air shopping centers or online places line Amazon. The resulting decline of malls is just collateral damage and most have no emotional attachment about it. (Note that the CNN article isn't reporting on any sentiments about it. It's just relaying the economic reality that more stores are closing which lead to more dead malls.) Also, suburban malls have been in decline since the mid 1980s long before Amazon came on the scene. Amazon is just accelerating the decline. >What makes those malls so... relevant? They're less relevant now but malls were a phenomenon in the USA because of cars and cheap suburban land away from city downtowns. Before the World Wars, Americans shopped in downtown "main streets".[1] The rise of car ownership by middle-class families in the 1950s enabled suburban single-family homes which fueled the rise of the malls. [1] https://www.google.com/search?biw=1312&bih=1423&tbm=isch&q=downtown+main+street+shopping+cars https://www.google.com/search?biw=1312&bih=1423&tbm=isch&q=d...
- flyinghamster 9y ago
  > the newer open-air shopping centers The Circle of Fashion has been completed. The early, 1950s-era malls were outdoor. In the Chicago area, at least two of them survive to this day (Oakbrook Center and Old Orchard). Park Forest Plaza didn't fare so well after the enclosed Lincoln Mall opened in 1973 a few miles west in Matteson. Now, though, Lincoln Mall has been demolished except for the Carson Pirie Scott store, which was made freestanding. Over in Orland Park, in the wake of enclosed Orland Square's success, a second enclosed mall was built just to the south. It was not a success, and it was eventually turned inside out as a sort of double-sided strip mall, which now thrives.
_rpd 9y ago
> What makes those malls so... relevant? One factor not mentioned so far is that they are large employers of low skilled labor. If malls disappear, this will be one less employment option.
gremlinsinc 9y ago
I think one of the biggest effects people aren't talking about in other comments are jobs. Amazon can automate the hell out of getting goods to me, so we essentially don't need 1000's of stores and millions of retail workers anymore.

mseebach 9y ago

Malls have roughly the same function as "main streets" do in European towns - a relatively neutral public space - and I suspect the worry for their demise is largely the same as the worry for the demise of the main street in Europe.

vanpeebles 9y ago
The difference with malls is they are private businesses (and private property) so there are many restrictions to what the public could otherwise lawfully do on a Main Street (parades, festivals or demonstrations) - that is without express permission from the property owner.
- distances 9y ago
  Plus, cities are thriving so main streets are not going anywhere -- the shops probably change to reflect the online shopping trends though. More cafés, definitely. Small town main streets are going away sure, but those towns are slowly emptying anyway.
- Karliss 9y ago
  Organizing a parade or festival on main street would also require a permit from City.

csydas 9y ago

Mostly the former probably, but for many it's the latter as well. Malls historically were a central gathering point where many people burnt an entire day just shopping around, grabbing lunch at the food court, and just in general "hanging out". It's where the term Mallrat (and the move _Mallrats_) gets their naming from. In more recent years it's not as important and the day trips probably aren't there, but many still flock to malls around holidays for shopping and also during the summers in places where climate control is either too expensive or unavailable for people (same with theaters). Likewise, just having a large availability of stores and a place to put the kids (or just to meet in general) is still really important. Older folk also enjoy walking the mall as it's a large and safe area (also climate controlled). So basically, it still has some functions in society beyond being representative of general economic health.

black_puppydog 9y ago
To me, a lot of these functions seem like things that could easily be available to the individual (like AC) or should be provided to the general public, not just in malls (like being a "safe area"). But thank you, that does clarify it indeed. :)
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > "safe area" This means "I can leave my teenagers there without worrying". Malls have private security. They can (and do) escort people out who are doing things that are bad for business. That includes all sorts of things that are legal (and should be legal!) but aren't appropriate in that context. Other things are illegal but impossible to eliminate from public life (and public parks). Many of those things are things you'd worry about your teenager being around. Like public drinking. Drug use (legal and not). Misdemeanor violence. Sexual harassment from random citizens (creepy middle aged people with panel vans). Public sexual conduct (sex in the bushes or in the bathroom stall). In other words, "safe area" is code for "free low-grade babysitting".
  - thejayray 9y ago
    There are some places, however, that are starting to put restrictions around minors in Malls at given times of day. The article mentions Simon Property Managment and I think that company now disallows anyone under 18 within their malls after 5pm, Friday through Sunday. This seems even stranger to me because of the foot traffic and disposable income of many minors; feels like a target demographic that the malls are shunning, then complaining about lower amounts of foot traffic.
- wil421 9y ago
  I’m going to clear this up really quick because what OP said was extremely weird. People do not go to malls for AC and I live in the Deep South where it humid as hell. Safe Area is a weird choice of words. I guess it means parents can drop kids off at a place that has decent rent a cops. Generally keeping kids safe from themselves or weirdos I presume. My parents would’ve never said I like dropping my kids at the mall because it’s safe.

tomalpha 9y ago

That's an interesting question. How is a mall closing a problem provided that people are still buying things, albeit from a different company to the one they bought from before? If money continues to move around the system, surely this is something that looks like an economic indicator, but is really more of a cultural shift. (Separately there could well be economic problems with the decline of manufacturing etc.). Are shopping malls somehow deeply rooted in the American psyche? Watching US movies from the 80's and 90's might suggest that they are...

black_puppydog 9y ago
that last bit is what prompted my question. crydas' and mseebach's answers make a good point that for some reasons, malls in the US started taking on other roles than just the places of exchange for everyday goods. so from that perspective, if malls fail, those roles need to be filled by some other entity.
- gbacon 9y ago
  It’s a sentimental attachment for Gen Xers.
bunderbunder 9y ago
Not just the psyche, the landscape, too. Many US towns are so sprawled out that the mall was the only thing they had for public space. When the local mall closes, a bunch of people who've spent much of the past decade sitting on their couches, and aren't necessarily happy about that situation, realize that this is probably how they're going to be spending the next decade, too.

randomerr 9y ago

Nostalgia and community. It was the one place 2-3 generation would gather at for events and shopping. As these break up and go away we see our childhood and teens go away with them. Finally its blight. These empty husks tend to take the surrounding communities down with them. It can take decades to get them either resold or at least demolished. They invite homeless people and gangs. There's an abandoned mall in Cleveland, Oh that usually has about 4 bodies found in it a year. But its stuck in court because the city doesn't want to take on cost of back taxes.

amorphid 9y ago
That sounds right. My family and I used to go to the mall every Monday night to grab food at hang out. I'd always hit up the book stores, game stores, and electronics stores.

lawn 9y ago

When I visited Malaysia earlier this year I asked on of the residents there what's the deal with malls there. She said it was the place all the kids went to when their parents kicked them out (don't watch tv all day!) because they had aircondition. There was a social component as well.

reustle 9y ago
I think this is the case around a lot of SE asia. Bangkok has plenty of massive shopping malls, and they're very often busy. It's a great place to hang out when it's 34 degrees out at 80% humidity :)
- wyclif 9y ago
  Definitely a SE Asia thing. Malls in Asia are closer to amusement parks with shopping than straight retail with a cineplex attached. In the Philippines the SM mall chain, run by the Sy family from China, is still on the upswing with no end in sight. Always busy on nights and weekends, and filled with kids hanging out because it's so damned hot and humid outside all the time (and the average age in the Philippines is 23). Another factor in SE Asia is that most people (esp. young people) do not make purchases with credit cards like they do in the US and which makes Amazon's dominance assured and hastens the decline of malls. Mobile is huge, and mobile payments and cash are still king. Lazada is big in the Philippines because they accept mobile payments, e-wallet funds, and COD.

jasode 9y ago

>are people upset In general, people in America really aren't upset about the trend of dying malls. They just choose to shop elsewhere such as the newer open-air shopping centers or online places line Amazon. The resulting decline of malls is just collateral damage and most have no emotional attachment about it. (Note that the CNN article isn't reporting on any sentiments about it. It's just relaying the economic reality that more stores are closing which lead to more dead malls.) Also, suburban malls have been in decline since the mid 1980s long before Amazon came on the scene. Amazon is just accelerating the decline. >What makes those malls so... relevant? They're less relevant now but malls were a phenomenon in the USA because of cars and cheap suburban land away from city downtowns. Before the World Wars, Americans shopped in downtown "main streets".[1] The rise of car ownership by middle-class families in the 1950s enabled suburban single-family homes which fueled the rise of the malls. [1] https://www.google.com/search?biw=1312&bih=1423&tbm=isch&q=downtown+main+street+shopping+cars https://www.google.com/search?biw=1312&bih=1423&tbm=isch&q=d...

flyinghamster 9y ago
> the newer open-air shopping centers The Circle of Fashion has been completed. The early, 1950s-era malls were outdoor. In the Chicago area, at least two of them survive to this day (Oakbrook Center and Old Orchard). Park Forest Plaza didn't fare so well after the enclosed Lincoln Mall opened in 1973 a few miles west in Matteson. Now, though, Lincoln Mall has been demolished except for the Carson Pirie Scott store, which was made freestanding. Over in Orland Park, in the wake of enclosed Orland Square's success, a second enclosed mall was built just to the south. It was not a success, and it was eventually turned inside out as a sort of double-sided strip mall, which now thrives.

_rpd 9y ago

> What makes those malls so... relevant? One factor not mentioned so far is that they are large employers of low skilled labor. If malls disappear, this will be one less employment option.

gremlinsinc 9y ago

I think one of the biggest effects people aren't talking about in other comments are jobs. Amazon can automate the hell out of getting goods to me, so we essentially don't need 1000's of stores and millions of retail workers anymore.