4 ms·

> I'm a layman when it comes to this but I'd be very interested in any refutations of this paper. I doubt there can be refutation in the sense that "its conclu

> I'm a layman when it comes to this but I'd be very interested in any refutations of this paper. I doubt there can be refutation in the sense that "its conclusions are obviously wrong".... the catch is how you interpret/act on those conclusions. Yes, stereotypes become stereotypes because they are, or at least recently were, "largely true" (in the statistical sense - i.e. not always but "too often to ignore"). E.g., in my country, a lot of the petty criminals are gypsies - it would be foolish to reject that truth. However, the stereotype "gypsy = criminal" is still incredibly harmful (despite being grounded in truth), both at the individual level (producing harm to innocents) and at the group level (doesn't solve the problem, only contributes to making it worse). The bigger problem is that people are ill-equipped to handle these thoughts in the brain simultaneously: that a stereotype can be largely true, and yet it's harmful/a bad idea to act instinctively based on the information it provides. The correct responses to a stereotype are complex/should be based on reason - those based on instincts/reflexes are very often wrong. But it's so hard to resist the instincts, that often it's simpler to just dismiss the stereotype as "false".

danieltillett 9y ago
I am curious how ignoring the connection between being a Roma and your likelihood of engaging in criminal activity is beneficial to anyone? It most certainly doesn’t benefit the Roma.
- yorwba 9y ago
  You don't have to ignore it, but you need to take into account that a stereotype that's say 60% accurate is still wrong 40% of the time. That difference can affect the optimal course of action tremendously. E.g. if the appropriate response to seeing a criminal is to call the police, applying the "gypsy = criminal" stereotype would lead to the prosecution of many innocent people. Of course if you are able to accurately take probabilities and uncertainty into account when making decisions, you can make good use of observed correlations; but most people tend to be better at dealing with deterministic rules (I certainly am) and need to consciously remind themselves not to overestimate the accuracy of a stereotype.
  - danieltillett 9y ago
    It seems like you are arguing against stupidity, not ignoring empirical evidence. Does anyone with an half a functional brain think all Roma are criminals or the alternative that if a dozen Roma children descend on them on the street that they are just wanting to say hello? I try to treat everyone as an individual, but when I don’t have the opportunity to do this I have no choice but to fall back on my life’s experience. Sometimes this means I avoid people I wouldn’t if they looked or acted differently, but I have no desire to be a victim to prove a point.
    - virgilp 9y ago
      People are stupid all the time. I am stupid. You are stupid. I'm sure even von Neumann was being stupid all the time. Do not over-estimate your own rationality - our instinctual responses are so frequent, that even if they're right 90% of the time, they still make us behave badly/stupidly far more often than we think we do. > I have no desire to be a victim to prove a point. This is not a dig against you. Humans - myself included - are incredibly flawed (while being incredibly awesome at the same time). I just find it helpful to keep this in mind. Personally, applying the stereotype as you say is a very reasonable (even "rational") choice. I do it too. But, at the same time, we should recognize the limitations of it - both you and I have probably treated a gypsy unfairly. That's ok, I'm fine with that, I've given up hope that I can be perfect - but, I still find that it helps to remind me that I'm not. And what I'm doing is not helping them. I don't know how I could _personally_ behave better (without harming myself) - but, that only means that I don't believe a solution can be found at the "personal" level. I believe "more of the same" will only work to reinforce the stereotype - so at a policy level, I believe that policies are needed to actively help them raise above their conditions (yes, maybe even positive discrimination is justified - at least, it's _something_ ), while at the same time working to fight against the symptoms (prevent the formation of "ghettos"/ their isolation in roma-only communities). But, I digress. This was about our own weaknesses, and how the stereotype, even when grounded in truth, can be harmful, because of the positive feedback loop it creates (which is very hard to break). In particular, a stereotype tells you that e.g. gypsies used to be petty criminals (in large proportions), but it does NOT tell you that they have to be so in the future. It does not tell you the "why" - maybe it's coded in their DNA. But what if (more likely, IMO) it's actually coded in our social norms? Because those, we can change! It takes effort, and time, but it's doable.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  > It most certainly doesn’t benefit the Roma. Not as a society or culture in general. Ignoring prevalence of poverty, crime, prejudice, illiteracy of one's own group (and note an individual belong to multiple group and some choose to identify with one or more in particular) is usually not beneficial. But it will benefit an individual if they say are not involved in crime and want to apply for a job, school or move up the corporate ladder or interact with a neighbor, and others don't automatically apply stereotypes to them based on their skin color, race, nationality, language spoken etc.
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    At whose cost? Remember that someone is being stolen from or cheated on this case, on average. (If your percentages are correct.) What the paper actually argues is to measure accuracy of the stereotypes instead of calling them wrong. If it is say 90% accurate it is not on the person hiring to fix this perception. It it's similar with black people in tge US and crime, however there are known institutional causes of it, not really a self fulfilling prophecy either. (They also apply to so-called white trash and result in the same, but in different states and therefore it is only a specific subgroup that is stereotyped instead is skin colour. Similar about Puerto Ricans or Mexican immigrants.)
mpweiher 9y ago
> the stereotype "gypsy = criminal" is still incredibly harmful How so? You just state this as a given, and in fact, that also could be seen as a stereotype. > people are ill-equipped to handle these thoughts in the brain simultaneously Actually, the evidence is that people are very well equipped to handle these thoughts simultaneously: they use the stereotype only as long as they have no further evidence.
- virgilp 9y ago
  I actually explained "how so" in my post, not sure what extra details you want: A. At a personal level: do I need to go into details how being presumed "by default" to be non-trustworthy and potentially a criminal/thief can seriously impact your lifetime opportunities? B. At a group level: the instinctual response to criminals is to avoid &"isolate" them; this creates ghettos. It doesn't help that they also have a tendency to auto-isolate themselves. I fail to see how this response is any of help towards actually solving the problem (well, short of the "final solution", I guess, if you're willing to seriously consider that).
  - mpweiher 9y ago
    You "explained" nothing, you just asserted. >do I need to go into details how being presumed "by default" to be non-trustworthy and potentially a criminal/thief can seriously impact your lifetime opportunities? Yes, please do. When you do, take into account that "per default" means "as long as no other information is available", which only applies to people that you are completely unconnected to and have never interacted with. Also, please try to incorporate this into a model of the real world with tradeoffs. So for example weigh my/your/his/her right not to be victimized, and everyone's duty to take care of themselves and others, with the right of someone not to be viewed with suspicion. > the instinctual response to criminals is to avoid &"isolate" them Citation needed. > tendency to auto-isolate themselves Citation needed. Aren't you stereotyping here? > help towards actually solving the problem What is "the problem" you refer to? What would you see as a solution?
    - virgilp 9y ago
cristianpascu 9y ago
I have once robbed by a Gypsy guy, right after I thought to myself "I should judge him". It was late in the night. He was backed up by an obviously non-gypsy guy. Needless to say, I've been more skeptical since then about interactions like these. BUT, it was not only he was gypsy. The whole situation screamed danger. That's where stereotypes are powerful and useful, for your own safety. On the other hand, whenever people are casually talking about 'darker skinned faces', in Romania meaning gypsy, then we're talking about something else. These are the situations where people are just promoting a gratuitous sense of pride and superiority for its own sake.
20171026 9y ago
Hungary?
alexasmyths 9y ago
Ahh. A very interesting one. I was once robbed by Gypsies/Roma in a rather spectacular way. The whole family was involved. Given the fact that these folks roam around the continent willy nilly, it's rather difficult for them to be actually employed. Maybe in the past, as specialized workers? Point being - thievery and corruption may not just be a more common artifact of their culture it may be an existential and critical part of their culture. 'Running scams' may be deeply integrated into their culture, such as it is a common custom. You go 'to school' from a young age. They might 'learn how to rob' from a young age - because it's their livelihood. Not only this - robbing people, and a culture of robbing people from a young age, implies a deeply problematic view of others by people in that culture, it has to be deeply cynical. To be clear: I'm not saying any of this is absolutely true. Someone needs to write the paper. I'm saying that some negative attributes are a fundamental part of specific cultures. Maybe it wouldn't be too hard to think of attributes of our own culture which are not so great. But because this would just be a pop-culture holocaust - it could never possibly be discussed, let alone researched. I guess sometimes the interests of peaceful and polite culture trump the darker truths we may sometimes want to shield from ourselves.
- danielam 9y ago
  > Maybe in the past, as specialized workers? My grandmother had some interesting encounters with Roma when she was younger. Apparently, the only time people locked their doors in town was when the Roma caravans rolled through (otherwise, you'd risk them entering your house uninvited, etc, etc, which did happen to her at least once). However, they were apparently also quite good at certain kinds of labor, such a replating (industrial?) mixing bowls with tin, a job she hired a "gypsy king" for, who assembled some of the younger Roma in his group for the task. I.e., mobility is not mutually exclusive with having so-called marketable skills or providing services.
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    Yes, and there are some English gypsy types who specialized in horsemanship or managing horses. I feel however that these kinds of jobs are going to be far and few between as everything becomes professionalized.

danieltillett 9y ago

I am curious how ignoring the connection between being a Roma and your likelihood of engaging in criminal activity is beneficial to anyone? It most certainly doesn’t benefit the Roma.

yorwba 9y ago
You don't have to ignore it, but you need to take into account that a stereotype that's say 60% accurate is still wrong 40% of the time. That difference can affect the optimal course of action tremendously. E.g. if the appropriate response to seeing a criminal is to call the police, applying the "gypsy = criminal" stereotype would lead to the prosecution of many innocent people. Of course if you are able to accurately take probabilities and uncertainty into account when making decisions, you can make good use of observed correlations; but most people tend to be better at dealing with deterministic rules (I certainly am) and need to consciously remind themselves not to overestimate the accuracy of a stereotype.
- danieltillett 9y ago
  It seems like you are arguing against stupidity, not ignoring empirical evidence. Does anyone with an half a functional brain think all Roma are criminals or the alternative that if a dozen Roma children descend on them on the street that they are just wanting to say hello? I try to treat everyone as an individual, but when I don’t have the opportunity to do this I have no choice but to fall back on my life’s experience. Sometimes this means I avoid people I wouldn’t if they looked or acted differently, but I have no desire to be a victim to prove a point.
  - virgilp 9y ago
    People are stupid all the time. I am stupid. You are stupid. I'm sure even von Neumann was being stupid all the time. Do not over-estimate your own rationality - our instinctual responses are so frequent, that even if they're right 90% of the time, they still make us behave badly/stupidly far more often than we think we do. > I have no desire to be a victim to prove a point. This is not a dig against you. Humans - myself included - are incredibly flawed (while being incredibly awesome at the same time). I just find it helpful to keep this in mind. Personally, applying the stereotype as you say is a very reasonable (even "rational") choice. I do it too. But, at the same time, we should recognize the limitations of it - both you and I have probably treated a gypsy unfairly. That's ok, I'm fine with that, I've given up hope that I can be perfect - but, I still find that it helps to remind me that I'm not. And what I'm doing is not helping them. I don't know how I could _personally_ behave better (without harming myself) - but, that only means that I don't believe a solution can be found at the "personal" level. I believe "more of the same" will only work to reinforce the stereotype - so at a policy level, I believe that policies are needed to actively help them raise above their conditions (yes, maybe even positive discrimination is justified - at least, it's _something_ ), while at the same time working to fight against the symptoms (prevent the formation of "ghettos"/ their isolation in roma-only communities). But, I digress. This was about our own weaknesses, and how the stereotype, even when grounded in truth, can be harmful, because of the positive feedback loop it creates (which is very hard to break). In particular, a stereotype tells you that e.g. gypsies used to be petty criminals (in large proportions), but it does NOT tell you that they have to be so in the future. It does not tell you the "why" - maybe it's coded in their DNA. But what if (more likely, IMO) it's actually coded in our social norms? Because those, we can change! It takes effort, and time, but it's doable.
rdtsc 9y ago
> It most certainly doesn’t benefit the Roma. Not as a society or culture in general. Ignoring prevalence of poverty, crime, prejudice, illiteracy of one's own group (and note an individual belong to multiple group and some choose to identify with one or more in particular) is usually not beneficial. But it will benefit an individual if they say are not involved in crime and want to apply for a job, school or move up the corporate ladder or interact with a neighbor, and others don't automatically apply stereotypes to them based on their skin color, race, nationality, language spoken etc.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  At whose cost? Remember that someone is being stolen from or cheated on this case, on average. (If your percentages are correct.) What the paper actually argues is to measure accuracy of the stereotypes instead of calling them wrong. If it is say 90% accurate it is not on the person hiring to fix this perception. It it's similar with black people in tge US and crime, however there are known institutional causes of it, not really a self fulfilling prophecy either. (They also apply to so-called white trash and result in the same, but in different states and therefore it is only a specific subgroup that is stereotyped instead is skin colour. Similar about Puerto Ricans or Mexican immigrants.)

mpweiher 9y ago

> the stereotype "gypsy = criminal" is still incredibly harmful How so? You just state this as a given, and in fact, that also could be seen as a stereotype. > people are ill-equipped to handle these thoughts in the brain simultaneously Actually, the evidence is that people are very well equipped to handle these thoughts simultaneously: they use the stereotype only as long as they have no further evidence.

virgilp 9y ago
I actually explained "how so" in my post, not sure what extra details you want: A. At a personal level: do I need to go into details how being presumed "by default" to be non-trustworthy and potentially a criminal/thief can seriously impact your lifetime opportunities? B. At a group level: the instinctual response to criminals is to avoid &"isolate" them; this creates ghettos. It doesn't help that they also have a tendency to auto-isolate themselves. I fail to see how this response is any of help towards actually solving the problem (well, short of the "final solution", I guess, if you're willing to seriously consider that).
- mpweiher 9y ago
  You "explained" nothing, you just asserted. >do I need to go into details how being presumed "by default" to be non-trustworthy and potentially a criminal/thief can seriously impact your lifetime opportunities? Yes, please do. When you do, take into account that "per default" means "as long as no other information is available", which only applies to people that you are completely unconnected to and have never interacted with. Also, please try to incorporate this into a model of the real world with tradeoffs. So for example weigh my/your/his/her right not to be victimized, and everyone's duty to take care of themselves and others, with the right of someone not to be viewed with suspicion. > the instinctual response to criminals is to avoid &"isolate" them Citation needed. > tendency to auto-isolate themselves Citation needed. Aren't you stereotyping here? > help towards actually solving the problem What is "the problem" you refer to? What would you see as a solution?
  - virgilp 9y ago

cristianpascu 9y ago

I have once robbed by a Gypsy guy, right after I thought to myself "I should judge him". It was late in the night. He was backed up by an obviously non-gypsy guy. Needless to say, I've been more skeptical since then about interactions like these. BUT, it was not only he was gypsy. The whole situation screamed danger. That's where stereotypes are powerful and useful, for your own safety. On the other hand, whenever people are casually talking about 'darker skinned faces', in Romania meaning gypsy, then we're talking about something else. These are the situations where people are just promoting a gratuitous sense of pride and superiority for its own sake.

20171026 9y ago

Hungary?

alexasmyths 9y ago

Ahh. A very interesting one. I was once robbed by Gypsies/Roma in a rather spectacular way. The whole family was involved. Given the fact that these folks roam around the continent willy nilly, it's rather difficult for them to be actually employed. Maybe in the past, as specialized workers? Point being - thievery and corruption may not just be a more common artifact of their culture it may be an existential and critical part of their culture. 'Running scams' may be deeply integrated into their culture, such as it is a common custom. You go 'to school' from a young age. They might 'learn how to rob' from a young age - because it's their livelihood. Not only this - robbing people, and a culture of robbing people from a young age, implies a deeply problematic view of others by people in that culture, it has to be deeply cynical. To be clear: I'm not saying any of this is absolutely true. Someone needs to write the paper. I'm saying that some negative attributes are a fundamental part of specific cultures. Maybe it wouldn't be too hard to think of attributes of our own culture which are not so great. But because this would just be a pop-culture holocaust - it could never possibly be discussed, let alone researched. I guess sometimes the interests of peaceful and polite culture trump the darker truths we may sometimes want to shield from ourselves.

danielam 9y ago
> Maybe in the past, as specialized workers? My grandmother had some interesting encounters with Roma when she was younger. Apparently, the only time people locked their doors in town was when the Roma caravans rolled through (otherwise, you'd risk them entering your house uninvited, etc, etc, which did happen to her at least once). However, they were apparently also quite good at certain kinds of labor, such a replating (industrial?) mixing bowls with tin, a job she hired a "gypsy king" for, who assembled some of the younger Roma in his group for the task. I.e., mobility is not mutually exclusive with having so-called marketable skills or providing services.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  Yes, and there are some English gypsy types who specialized in horsemanship or managing horses. I feel however that these kinds of jobs are going to be far and few between as everything becomes professionalized.