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> Follow the money Paint, for those of us with no familiarity with the US system, a picture.

by mfukar 9y ago

CaptSpify 9y ago
Insane administrative salaries, ridiculous sports budgets, new buildings and amenities that no student needs ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/one-schools-formula-for-athletic-success-build-a-lazy-river-and-hope-the-recruits-will-come/2017/03/31/e1b7f5c8-1568-11e7-833c-503e1f6394c9_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/one-schools-f... )
- slg 9y ago
  Those things are easy scapegoats but they aren't the biggest cause of tuition increases. States simply aren't spending the money on colleges like they did in the past. [1] This is likely because of all the guaranteed loan money available so the states don't feel the same pressure to fund universities. For the specific case you linked above, $25m for athletic upgrades is really not that expensive for a school the size of UCF with over 64,000 students and an annual budget of $1.5b. [2] If you abandoned building the facilities and distributed the money evenly among all students you could cut costs for a single year by 2% for in state students and 1% for out of state students. [3] That isn't nothing and you can certainly debate whether athletic facilities are a smart use of $25m, but it is a drop in the bucket compared with the actual rise in costs. [1] - https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-main-reason-tuition-is-skyrocketing/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m... [2]- https://www.ucf.edu/about-ucf/facts/ https://www.ucf.edu/about-ucf/facts/ [3]- https://admissions.ucf.edu/cost/ https://admissions.ucf.edu/cost/
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    > Those things are easy scapegoats but they aren't the biggest cause of tuition increases. States simply aren't spending the money on colleges like they did in the past. [1] This is likely because of all the guaranteed loan money available so the states don't feel the same pressure to fund universities. I have seen the model stated that there are two Official Views on why college prices are up: 1, the Democratic View: prices are up because states have cut spending on colleges. 2, the Republican View: prices are up because given the easy availability of student loans, colleges can charge higher prices. It's surprising to me that these are considered acceptable rival opinions, because, if you assume that one is right and the other is wrong, it's very easy to determine which is which. #1 says that prices have risen due to a fall in supply. #2 says prices have risen due to a rise in demand. Both of those things do in fact increase prices, but a fall in supply causes a rise in prices and a fall in quantity traded, while a rise in demand causes a rise in prices and a rise in quantity traded. If you think that one of these things is responsible for high prices, you can determine which simply by asking "compared to the good times when prices were low, have college enrollments increased or decreased?"
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - redblacktree 9y ago
      Nah, it's both-and. States feel less pressure to fund colleges because of easy availability of student loans.
    - jmcqk6 9y ago
      That's an incredibly simplistic view and betrays own biases. For example, point 1 could better be described as "per capita state spending" and that completely annihilates your point. In the same way, for point 2, you would have to calculate the percentage of funding change per student, not the macro view alone.
  - Sacho 9y ago
    Link n1 presents some interesting information: "The picture is a bit different at private schools, which do not receive state funding but have nonetheless seen substantial tuition increases. At private nonprofit colleges, the spending categories described above — student services and faculty and administrative salaries — together explain most of the tuition increase over the past two decades." So perhaps this is a case of misattribution - you have people talking about the excesses of private schools in terms of administration and such, but the article is talking about public schools. Are people just talking past each other here? A good question to ask would be if we're looking at the same rate of student loans/defaults on loans. If students in private schools predominantly pay their loans, then this points to the reduction in state funding as the primary culprit, but it could be the other way around as well. There's also this: "Among for-profit institutions, it is much more difficult to pin down a reason for tuition increases, though recent research suggests that one big cause is the generosity of federal student aid: Some institutions may be raising tuition in order to capture as much government-backed money as possible." Since federal money and state money comes from the pockets of the same people, is it not reasonable to suggest that this "generous federal aid" is siphoning off resources into for-profits, where most of the tuition increase is "administrative bloat", instead of going to state-funded public schools, at least to some extent? One final thing - the article doesn't go into detail as to why state funding has decreased. Is it because the states have redirected education funding into other spheres, or perhaps that the states have to fund way more schools(per capita) than they used to? This is another missing piece of the puzzle.
    - jsymolon 9y ago
      For one state in the Northeast, crushing debt load of state pensions. For a couple of decades, state leadership promised generous pensions and kept kicking the can down the road. Something has to give and (higher) education funding is an easy item to cut. "The current speaker of the house, Joe Aresimowicz, works for the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, an amazing conflict of interest even by blue-state standards." "The erosion of Connecticut’s suburban tax base is a more dire prospect than the continued weakness of its cities."
- kodablah 9y ago
  Alternative reason they charge such high rates: because they can. The demand (and the system/society that encourages it) is there. All of those items you listed I believe are the effect of having more money, not the cause of collecting more.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
616c 9y ago
Former university system administrator, let me summarize: US govt style waste but in the private sector, spoiled professors to their credit who are not going to shrink their income after under and grad debt, and obtuse admins overseeing technical and nontechnical projects with zero domain expertise or project management acumen. Go work in a private uni in the US. You'll be amazed! I worked in a top 20, and on an int'l campus. My very disgusted view of private education is based on 8+ years there.
- ikeyany 9y ago
  You've got it. And not only is university more expensive overall for these reasons, but a significantly smaller proportion of tuition/housing is coming from state funding. When education is treated like a business instead of a public good, the costs get passed on to students from wealthy families or to students who take out massive loans.

> Follow the money Paint, for those of us with no familiarity with the US system, a picture.

by mfukar 9y ago

> Follow the money Paint, for those of us with no familiarity with the US system, a picture.

Insane administrative salaries, ridiculous sports budgets, new buildings and amenities that no student needs ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/one-schools-formula-for-athletic-success-build-a-lazy-river-and-hope-the-recruits-will-come/2017/03/31/e1b7f5c8-1568-11e7-833c-503e1f6394c9_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/one-schools-f... )

slg 9y ago
Those things are easy scapegoats but they aren't the biggest cause of tuition increases. States simply aren't spending the money on colleges like they did in the past. [1] This is likely because of all the guaranteed loan money available so the states don't feel the same pressure to fund universities. For the specific case you linked above, $25m for athletic upgrades is really not that expensive for a school the size of UCF with over 64,000 students and an annual budget of $1.5b. [2] If you abandoned building the facilities and distributed the money evenly among all students you could cut costs for a single year by 2% for in state students and 1% for out of state students. [3] That isn't nothing and you can certainly debate whether athletic facilities are a smart use of $25m, but it is a drop in the bucket compared with the actual rise in costs. [1] - https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-main-reason-tuition-is-skyrocketing/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m... [2]- https://www.ucf.edu/about-ucf/facts/ https://www.ucf.edu/about-ucf/facts/ [3]- https://admissions.ucf.edu/cost/ https://admissions.ucf.edu/cost/
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  > Those things are easy scapegoats but they aren't the biggest cause of tuition increases. States simply aren't spending the money on colleges like they did in the past. [1] This is likely because of all the guaranteed loan money available so the states don't feel the same pressure to fund universities. I have seen the model stated that there are two Official Views on why college prices are up: 1, the Democratic View: prices are up because states have cut spending on colleges. 2, the Republican View: prices are up because given the easy availability of student loans, colleges can charge higher prices. It's surprising to me that these are considered acceptable rival opinions, because, if you assume that one is right and the other is wrong, it's very easy to determine which is which. #1 says that prices have risen due to a fall in supply. #2 says prices have risen due to a rise in demand. Both of those things do in fact increase prices, but a fall in supply causes a rise in prices and a fall in quantity traded, while a rise in demand causes a rise in prices and a rise in quantity traded. If you think that one of these things is responsible for high prices, you can determine which simply by asking "compared to the good times when prices were low, have college enrollments increased or decreased?"
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - redblacktree 9y ago
    Nah, it's both-and. States feel less pressure to fund colleges because of easy availability of student loans.
  - jmcqk6 9y ago
    That's an incredibly simplistic view and betrays own biases. For example, point 1 could better be described as "per capita state spending" and that completely annihilates your point. In the same way, for point 2, you would have to calculate the percentage of funding change per student, not the macro view alone.
- Sacho 9y ago
  Link n1 presents some interesting information: "The picture is a bit different at private schools, which do not receive state funding but have nonetheless seen substantial tuition increases. At private nonprofit colleges, the spending categories described above — student services and faculty and administrative salaries — together explain most of the tuition increase over the past two decades." So perhaps this is a case of misattribution - you have people talking about the excesses of private schools in terms of administration and such, but the article is talking about public schools. Are people just talking past each other here? A good question to ask would be if we're looking at the same rate of student loans/defaults on loans. If students in private schools predominantly pay their loans, then this points to the reduction in state funding as the primary culprit, but it could be the other way around as well. There's also this: "Among for-profit institutions, it is much more difficult to pin down a reason for tuition increases, though recent research suggests that one big cause is the generosity of federal student aid: Some institutions may be raising tuition in order to capture as much government-backed money as possible." Since federal money and state money comes from the pockets of the same people, is it not reasonable to suggest that this "generous federal aid" is siphoning off resources into for-profits, where most of the tuition increase is "administrative bloat", instead of going to state-funded public schools, at least to some extent? One final thing - the article doesn't go into detail as to why state funding has decreased. Is it because the states have redirected education funding into other spheres, or perhaps that the states have to fund way more schools(per capita) than they used to? This is another missing piece of the puzzle.
  - jsymolon 9y ago
    For one state in the Northeast, crushing debt load of state pensions. For a couple of decades, state leadership promised generous pensions and kept kicking the can down the road. Something has to give and (higher) education funding is an easy item to cut. "The current speaker of the house, Joe Aresimowicz, works for the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, an amazing conflict of interest even by blue-state standards." "The erosion of Connecticut’s suburban tax base is a more dire prospect than the continued weakness of its cities."
kodablah 9y ago
Alternative reason they charge such high rates: because they can. The demand (and the system/society that encourages it) is there. All of those items you listed I believe are the effect of having more money, not the cause of collecting more.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

616c 9y ago

Former university system administrator, let me summarize: US govt style waste but in the private sector, spoiled professors to their credit who are not going to shrink their income after under and grad debt, and obtuse admins overseeing technical and nontechnical projects with zero domain expertise or project management acumen. Go work in a private uni in the US. You'll be amazed! I worked in a top 20, and on an int'l campus. My very disgusted view of private education is based on 8+ years there.

ikeyany 9y ago
You've got it. And not only is university more expensive overall for these reasons, but a significantly smaller proportion of tuition/housing is coming from state funding. When education is treated like a business instead of a public good, the costs get passed on to students from wealthy families or to students who take out massive loans.