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"The modern theory of the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating." -Thomas Jefferso

"The modern theory of the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating." -Thomas Jefferson I know I mention this book a lot on here, but _Debt: The First 5,000 Years_ is the most amazing book I've ever read on the history of debt, money and slavery. Debt relief has to come. Every great civilization throughout history has had to forgive debts. Current student debt is not even remotely payable. Millennials are the most in debt out of any generation, the lowest paid and most likely to take unpaid internships[1]. They put up with so much more that no previous generation would have even stood for. "A debt is just the perversion of a promise. It is a promise corrupted by both math and violence. If freedom (real freedom) is the ability to make friends, then it is also, necessarily, the ability to make real promises. What sorts of promises might genuinely free men and women make to one another? At this point we can’t even say. It's more a question of how we can get to a place that will allow us to find out. And the first step in that journey, in turn, is to accept that in the largest scheme of things, just as no one has the right to tell us our true value, no one has the right to tell us what we truly owe." Graber, Debt: The First 5,000 Years [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HFwok9SlQQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HFwok9SlQQ

prostoalex 9y ago
> Debt relief has to come. Every great civilization throughout history has had to forgive debts. Usually great news and desirable outcome for anyone carrying such debt, but not so great news for someone hoping to borrow for college at that exact time when the turbulent debt markets are trying to price in and overcompensate for high default rates. It’s like being a prospective home buyer in late 2008 - no one is returning your calls and if they do, you get the privilege to pay a premium for the other people’s mistakes.
Aron 9y ago
"A debt is just the perversion of a promise...." That entire quote reads as completely incoherent to me. I feel like I would have to learn entirely new brands of logic and language to decipher it.
- pfranz 9y ago
  I haven't read the book he suggested, but the book's author created this podcast[1], which I'm told covers much of the same stuff. It's really fascinating and changes how you think about debt. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05447pc http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05447pc
nextstep 9y ago
You recommended “Debt” on here a while back and so I read it and just finished it this week. Amazing read! So interesting how the language of debt is tied up in our conceptualization of morality. I see this everywhere now, mostly recently in this aptly named startup trying to build debt instruments on the blockchain: https://dharma.io https://dharma.io. After reading their whitepaper I think the irony of the name is lost on the authors. Anyway, thanks for the recommendation!
ternaryoperator 9y ago
> They put up with so much more that no previous generation would have even stood for. This is a rather ungenerous view of the great burdens faced by previous generations. When I grew up there was a draft. When you got out of high school, you faced the real live possibility of being forcibly inducted into the military and sent to an active combat zone--where many US soldiers died, including high-school friends of mine who were killed before they turned 20. They would happily have swapped going to war for four years of college and the long-term debt attached to it if they had had that option. You might not like the terms today, but please don't ever say you have it worse than any generation before you.
- gozur88 9y ago
  I agree with this. A lot of what I see along these lines is simple ignorance - life is certainly no harder than it's ever been and probably easier for most young people in the US.
hindsightRegret 9y ago
A bit off topic, but that quote from Jefferson never sat well with me. Easy to say when you had over 600 slaves. You know what else drenched the earth with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating? ...slavery.
gozur88 9y ago
What's funny about that Jefferson quote is Jefferson was a man who couldn't control his spending and was in debt his entire life. It's not surprising he felt that way.

prostoalex 9y ago

> Debt relief has to come. Every great civilization throughout history has had to forgive debts. Usually great news and desirable outcome for anyone carrying such debt, but not so great news for someone hoping to borrow for college at that exact time when the turbulent debt markets are trying to price in and overcompensate for high default rates. It’s like being a prospective home buyer in late 2008 - no one is returning your calls and if they do, you get the privilege to pay a premium for the other people’s mistakes.

Aron 9y ago

"A debt is just the perversion of a promise...." That entire quote reads as completely incoherent to me. I feel like I would have to learn entirely new brands of logic and language to decipher it.

pfranz 9y ago
I haven't read the book he suggested, but the book's author created this podcast[1], which I'm told covers much of the same stuff. It's really fascinating and changes how you think about debt. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05447pc http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05447pc

nextstep 9y ago

You recommended “Debt” on here a while back and so I read it and just finished it this week. Amazing read! So interesting how the language of debt is tied up in our conceptualization of morality. I see this everywhere now, mostly recently in this aptly named startup trying to build debt instruments on the blockchain: https://dharma.io https://dharma.io. After reading their whitepaper I think the irony of the name is lost on the authors. Anyway, thanks for the recommendation!

ternaryoperator 9y ago

> They put up with so much more that no previous generation would have even stood for. This is a rather ungenerous view of the great burdens faced by previous generations. When I grew up there was a draft. When you got out of high school, you faced the real live possibility of being forcibly inducted into the military and sent to an active combat zone--where many US soldiers died, including high-school friends of mine who were killed before they turned 20. They would happily have swapped going to war for four years of college and the long-term debt attached to it if they had had that option. You might not like the terms today, but please don't ever say you have it worse than any generation before you.

gozur88 9y ago
I agree with this. A lot of what I see along these lines is simple ignorance - life is certainly no harder than it's ever been and probably easier for most young people in the US.

hindsightRegret 9y ago

A bit off topic, but that quote from Jefferson never sat well with me. Easy to say when you had over 600 slaves. You know what else drenched the earth with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating? ...slavery.

gozur88 9y ago

What's funny about that Jefferson quote is Jefferson was a man who couldn't control his spending and was in debt his entire life. It's not surprising he felt that way.