4 ms·

That's a comforting fiction, however the truth has more to do with the industrial revolution, and the fact that a joule from coal is significantly cheaper than

stcredzero 9y ago
That's a comforting fiction, however the truth has more to do with the industrial revolution, and the fact that a joule from coal is significantly cheaper than a joule from a slave. Then why not have slaves running your coal powered machinery? The truth is that the free labor of slaves was just a particular (and ultimately inefficient) pattern of organizing society, and the human capital of knowledge is the real driving force. If energy was the ruling force, then West Virginia wouldn't be so poor and rural, and Japan wouldn't be a world economic powerhouse. Future high primary energy cost economies will almost certainly be based on slave labour, like they have in the past. Even in the historical US, slaves that worked in agriculture and industries that required knowledge and attention to detail were paid. Otherwise, there is no motivation for energizing the human capital of skill and knowledge. If the way you see the world were accurate, then totalitarian societies would be the wealthy ones. Instead, those with some degree of free trade and individual freedom are the wealthy ones.
- ageofwant 9y ago
  This is what I wrote: "a joule from coal is significantly cheaper than a joule from a slave", read my comment again. In your reply you stated the same. My point is that it was cheap coal energy that freed slaves, the economic realities of coal joules vs human joules, not high justice, economics.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    My point is that it was cheap coal energy that freed slaves, the economic realities of coal joules vs human joules, not high justice, economics. Then you are clearly demonstrating that you didn't carefully read the entirely what I wrote. The "free" labor of slavery was of little relative utility over other forms of social organization. In effect, it was just another (particularly egregious) form of social organization. All forms of human organization back then had about the same access to human joules. In all cases, the value of the human joules and coal joules was greatly increased through the addition of human capital in the form of skill and knowledge. Having the power of life and death obedience over people only goes so far. It gets you only a very crude application of those human joules. In order to get the maximum value out of your working population, you need forms of motivation beyond life and death obedience. The key fact is that the productive capacity of human capital intelligently combined with energy far outstrips the output of poorly applied energy. The key is the human capital, not the energy. If it was just the energy, then you'd just have slaves running coal powered plants. You would not have had slaves running business as in the Roman Empire, or artisan slaves and paid specialist agricultural in the US. High justice, as a form of human capital, enables economics.

stcredzero 9y ago

That's a comforting fiction, however the truth has more to do with the industrial revolution, and the fact that a joule from coal is significantly cheaper than a joule from a slave. Then why not have slaves running your coal powered machinery? The truth is that the free labor of slaves was just a particular (and ultimately inefficient) pattern of organizing society, and the human capital of knowledge is the real driving force. If energy was the ruling force, then West Virginia wouldn't be so poor and rural, and Japan wouldn't be a world economic powerhouse. Future high primary energy cost economies will almost certainly be based on slave labour, like they have in the past. Even in the historical US, slaves that worked in agriculture and industries that required knowledge and attention to detail were paid. Otherwise, there is no motivation for energizing the human capital of skill and knowledge. If the way you see the world were accurate, then totalitarian societies would be the wealthy ones. Instead, those with some degree of free trade and individual freedom are the wealthy ones.

ageofwant 9y ago
This is what I wrote: "a joule from coal is significantly cheaper than a joule from a slave", read my comment again. In your reply you stated the same. My point is that it was cheap coal energy that freed slaves, the economic realities of coal joules vs human joules, not high justice, economics.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  My point is that it was cheap coal energy that freed slaves, the economic realities of coal joules vs human joules, not high justice, economics. Then you are clearly demonstrating that you didn't carefully read the entirely what I wrote. The "free" labor of slavery was of little relative utility over other forms of social organization. In effect, it was just another (particularly egregious) form of social organization. All forms of human organization back then had about the same access to human joules. In all cases, the value of the human joules and coal joules was greatly increased through the addition of human capital in the form of skill and knowledge. Having the power of life and death obedience over people only goes so far. It gets you only a very crude application of those human joules. In order to get the maximum value out of your working population, you need forms of motivation beyond life and death obedience. The key fact is that the productive capacity of human capital intelligently combined with energy far outstrips the output of poorly applied energy. The key is the human capital, not the energy. If it was just the energy, then you'd just have slaves running coal powered plants. You would not have had slaves running business as in the Roman Empire, or artisan slaves and paid specialist agricultural in the US. High justice, as a form of human capital, enables economics.